September 6, 2007...9:05 pm

Gorn’s Position Statement: “9/11 Truth”

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On this blog, you will read many opinions about the “9/11 Truth” conspiracy theories. You will not see much countervailing opinion. In all cases this information should be understood as opinion and not fact. The focus of the information presented by “9/11 Truth” will be, often, of a technical nature, and thus difficult for the lay citizen to confirm with assurance, and potentially misleading without context. The emotion of the subject yields a particular level of risk. This is my position on the subject and is the opinion of the author only, and not any other TPZoo member.

 

My approach to the issue is based on the assumption that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. In a world full of extraordinary claims with a very high percentage of falsehood, this kind of thoughtfully considered skepticism is a defense against the slippery slope of credulity.

I begin with the following conspiracy summary: “A large group of individuals, numbering at least 50 and more probably in the hundreds if not thousands, and including the key elements of the empowered leadership of the United States government, conspired to achieve the following: to hijack four commercial jets filled with American civilians, fly two of those jets into the WTC towers, fly a third into the ground in Pennsylvania, presumably missing its target, and destroy the fourth in an unknown and undetected fashion. (The latter is often assumed to have plowed into the Pentagon, but components of the conspiracy theory postulate that evidence indicates that it is impossible for the plane to have flown into the Pentagon); intentionally fired a missile into the Pentagon; knowingly murdered 3000 American civilians; caused billions of dollars in damage; extensively loaded the WTC towers including WTC7, well in advance of these events, with explosives designed for a controlled implosion of the structures, presumably for the purpose of enhancing the dramatic impact of the event; maintained total secrecy from 9/11 through to this day; and framed Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan for this event as a pretext for attacking Iraq and Saddam Hussein and initiating a general Middle East war.”

My assessment of this conspiracy theory, as summarized above, is that it constitutes an extraordinary claim. My assumption is based on numerous factors. For example, conspiracies are difficult to implement and even more difficult to cover up. This is true for even simple conspiracies involving only a few people, much less one involving Americans murdering, in pre-meditated fashion, thousands of innocent fellow citizens. Conspiracies are even more difficult to undertake in open societies with strong democratic institutions and traditions. The expertise required to achieve the stated conspiracy includes, at a minimum, structural engineering, metallurgy, explosives, urban demolition, and avionics. Cooperation from commanders involved with operations such as missile launching would be required (and willingness to fire upon their own defense headquarters building), as well as cooperation from all key members of the President’s inner circle, the CIA, the FBI, and the NSA. That is only the beginning of the required web. If all elements of the variants on this theory are to be believed, even New York City firefighters and on-site reporters would have to be included.

It is my belief that a conspiracy of this magnitude, and its subsequent successful and ongoing cover-up, is virtually an intractable achievement. Further, there should have been better ways to achieve the goal of launching a war in the Middle East. For example, one might consider it more direct to have framed Saddam Hussein rather than Osama bin Laden. Further, a less dramatic attack than WTC could have been staged, or one not involving total building collapse. An attack on the Pentagon alone would have been a clear act of war, and the occupants of the Pentagon could have been more easily controlled. There would have been far less civilian collateral damage. For that matter, a staged devastating attack could have been thwarted (equally staged) just prior to implementation, not only revealing an act of war, but also rendering the US administration both competent and heroic. Instead, in order to accept the premises of the theory, we must believe that these otherwise brilliant conspirators chose a scenario that would make them appear negligent and incompetent.

Just because a conspiracy theory constitutes an extraordinary claim, does not mean that the theory is not true. But, we should insist on extraordinary evidence before embracing such a claim.

The 9/11 Truth theorists present hundreds of references which are quite compelling and at least superficially very convincing. Although they do not always appreciate comparisons with other conspiracy theories, the fact is that compelling and convincing stories are the norm among conspiracy theories. It is also the norm for conspiracy theories to be wrong.

I do not insist that the technical data presented in support of this particular theory is false. Some or all of it may be true, some or all of it may be false. Some or all of the technical claims may be true, but do not reflect the truth of what actually happened (for example, they may be true in some contexts but not in the context where the theory uses them; or, additional factors that would impact the results may have been missed or ignored by the theorists). Indeed I have no special knowledge or authority to know for a certainty which of the information is true or false. Typically none of the participants of blogs like this will have authoritative knowledge. As with all lay readers, I can rely only on the assessment of acknowledged experts who have no axe to grind.

To make a fair initial assessment for this conspiracy theory, it is necessary to consider explanations presented by 9/11 Truth supporters, but it is also critical to consider explanations presented by expert testimony that does not come from the 9/11 Truth supporters. The claims and counter-claims can be compared side-by-side, and lay readers can make a determination of which sources seem to them most credible.

I do not claim to have analyzed all the evidence in complete detail. I freely admit that I have not done so. However, I have read enough from both sides to conclude that I don’t know for a certainty which view is the more accurate one. Typically, evidence presented from one side is directly and specifically contradicted by expert testimony on the other side.

Because my lay opinion cannot determine which side is the more technically accurate, I must provisionally judge both sides as equally meritorious and worthy of further investigation and reconciliation by unrelated, objective third party experts. It is unlikely that we will achieve such an objective, third party analysis at least until the current US administration is terminated.

And finally, because I cannot render an absolute judgment on the technical evidence supporting 9/11 Truth, and I do not see any evidence of leaks or confessions from the alleged ranks of conspirators, I conclude that extraordinary evidence of the sort necessary to accept this theory does not, at this time, exist. Further, I have noted that the “debunking” view typically represents the simplest answers requiring the fewest logical leaps. As Occam’s Razor indicates, such answers tend to be the correct ones. It is also a documented fact that at least some of the conspiracy evidence is very selective in terms of evidence presented, taking photos, portions of photos, quotes, and other evidence out of context and bypassing elements that would not support the desired conclusions. Such tactics, if by intention or by oversight, do not bode well for the overall case.

Therefore, I provisionally reject the extraordinary claim until such time as conclusive extraordinary evidence is presented that convincingly shows all information within its full context, and reconciles the differences present in recognized expert opinion between the two sides.

Note that my assessment does not forgive negligence nor incompetence on the part of the US administration, nor rule out the possibility that at some level “negligence” may have been intentional. I merely, and provisionally, rule out the most extraordinary claim presented: the multi-faceted, multi-dimensional, premeditated mass murder scenario, and massive ongoing coverup, summarized above.

As a final point, I will state this: regardless of whether 9/11 was perpetrated by our government, perpetrated by Al Qaeda, or perpetrated by some other force, it happened. We cannot make it go away. What we can do, however, is work constructively for a better world. Setting aside the fact of 9/11 itself, we have an ongoing problem to resolve, manifest by six years of corruption, abuse, negligence, mismanagement, cronyism, assault on civil liberties, assault on international norms and friendships, assault on the Constitution, and assault on the rule of law, all at the hands of the George W. Bush Administration and the rubber stamp Republicans who controlled Congress (for a 12 year period), the majority of governorships, and increasingly the judicial branch up to and including the Supreme Court. Our duty and first priority is to hold this regime accountable for the real and provable damage that they have caused to us and to others across the globe, and for using the tragedy of 9/11 as the primary fear-weapon to implement their corruption. This duty supersedes the secondary goal of chasing a final conclusive answer to the 9/11 Truth accusations, where those two aims are in pragmatic conflict. A final answer on the 9/11 Truth question can wait if necessary, but replacement of the current regime cannot.

The reader will note that I am not attempting to present and compare technical details of the two sides, nor engage in a technical debate. Many conspiracy theory proponents prefer to engage in such debates, which tend to overwhelm with detail, regardless of whether it is complete, accurate, or in context. The nature of this material does not lend itself to tit-for-tat debate between lay persons in an electronic forum. It may be great fun for those who enjoy polemics, but little or no enlightenment will result. It is far better to read and reflect upon the source materials without the distractions of an electronic forum, and if there is real confusion on one point or another, consult with a qualified and objective expert.

For those wishing to compare technical detail presented by 9/11 Truth supporters versus those who hold that movement to be wrong, here are some informative links. By presenting these links, I expressly convey that the expertise and quality of analyses lies with the analysts and not with me. I am not qualified to debate the technical detail, and such comments will be left unanswered by me. For those wishing to leave technical comments, I would ask that they make clear whether or not they possess credible expertise, such as a relevant graduate degree relating directly to the issue in question.

http://www.debunking911.com/

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-09-11.html

http://www.broowaha.com/article.php?id=2211

Lastly, I advise readers to ignore dismissive and ad hominem attacks from either side of this issue. This topic raises passions and tempers, creating much heat but little light. I believe healthy skepticism, combined with patience and an open mind, is the best tool for leading us to truth.

123 Comments

  • Please rename this post to “Gorn’s Position Statement” so that it is not misunderstood to be that of TPZoo

  • That’s a good idea, Willy.

    The title makes it look like TPZoo has this position, and as far as I’m concerned, TPZoo has no position on the subject.

  • gorn by any other name

    Done. This most assuredly is not the opinion shared by many vocal Critters, which I clearly stated in the intro.

  • I saw that, Gorn, but when I first saw the headline, I thought, “When did we do that?” Then I read….

  • Gorn, hundreds of millions of Americans believed Saddam had WMDs.

    Is that easy to lie to a country.

  • However, Gorn, that was a terrific, sincere, non-confrontational statement. I salute you.

  • gorn by any other name

    I agree, Zooey. I should have thought of that up front! My thanks to willy for pointing it out.

  • I agree with Juan, great article.

  • Today I need them

    Everything´s ok, big fella?

  • gorn by any other name

    Everything´s ok, big fella?” – juan

    Oh, yeah, I’m just a little distressed to find myself in disagreement with so many people I usually agree with. But I guess that keeps things interesting.

    And thanks, Zooey.

  • Both gorn and willy have presented great articles today. I commend you both.

    I do have a question that some others who, like me, didn’t see the original headline might ask. What was the original headline?

  • Gorn,

    We didn’t start this blog to have an echo chamber. I find the discussions very interesting. :)

  • Position Statement: “9/11 Truth”

    kind of read as if it was TPZoo position statement, but he did have a statement in his opening that it was his position.

  • Oh, disagreement.

    There is nothing better for knowledge than disagreement.

  • gorn by any other name

    “I do have a question that some others who, like me, didn’t see the original headline might ask. What was the original headline?” – egg

    It said simply “Position Statement” without the qualifier “Gorn’s” in front of it, although the opening paragraph did have the disclaimer as currently written.

  • I would be glad, as i have stated, to discuss any aspect of these questions that have been brought up by engineers, scientists, scholars, educators, and NIST Fire Investigation experts.

    That is why I set up the other thread.

    Simple, one point, dialoge.

  • gorn by any other name

    “There is nothing better for knowledge than disagreement.” – juan

    Indeed! But I’m so accustomed to being on the majority side, as on the Blog That Shall Not Be Named.

    Kicking stupid people around is a lot easier than kicking smart people around. ;)

  • Do we all get to make a post (not just comment on Gorn’s) stating our opinions on the matter? Bluedahlia’s position statement “9/11″ or some such?

  • gorn by any other name

    “Simple, one point, dialoge.” – willy

    There was no way I was going to clog up your thread with my huge post. I’m sure that would not be appreciated. Hence, the separate thread.

    In any case, as stated in my position statement, I’m not intending to debate technical points, though I’m sure others will want to do so.

  • Go right ahead, in my opinion.

  • gorn by any other name

    “Do we all get to make a post (not just comment on Gorn’s) stating our opinions on the matter? Bluedahlia’s position statement “9/11″ or some such?”

    Any Critter can make a post, bluedahlia.

  • Gorn, we are the minority in this world.

    We care.

  • As per our previous talk on the subject, it was my understanding that we would limit threads to straight-forward exchange of ideas.

    that’s why I posted a topic with one simple element to discuss. Eye witness testimony.

    Not scientific that “lay citizens” can’t understand. Just witnesses and a video that plays the sounds of explosions ( or one with an echo).

  • I think an open thread about 9/11 shall do.

    However, there must be explicit rules about the way we are going to present evidence and opinions. Without disqualifications whatsoever.

    Although Im not sensitive, so you can call me whatever you want.

    I just do ukemi. Gummitch knows what Im talking about.

  • gorn by any other name

    “Gorn, we are the minority in this world.” – juan

    Sad, but true I suppose.

    But as Paul Simon sang: “One man’s ceiling is another man’s floor.” We were the majority on the Blog That Shall Not Be Named (in quantity of people if not quantity of sock puppets).

  • gorn by any other name

    “Not scientific that “lay citizens” can’t understand.”

    Oh, I understand it perfectly well. What I won’t do is make claims that a particular data point the best and final answer.

    But nobody’s stopping that discussion from happening.

  • gorn by any other name

    “Although Im not sensitive, so you can call me whatever you want.” – juan

    I shall name you Brian that is called Brian.

  • Monty Python’s “Life of Brian?”

  • gorn by any other name

    Bingo! Lollipop for Zooey.

  • Yum!

    I love that movie. :)

  • Shhh…Pedro could be listening…

  • gorn by any other name

    “He has a wife, you know. Her name is….”

  • gorn by any other name

    Come to think of it, if I get in any more debates with willy, I can just shout: “Splitter!”

    “We’re the Popular Progressive Front. He’s the Progressive People’s Front. Splitter!”

  • I think that the other post should just be made public.

  • Okay, I am going to start small and work from there. Since the begining of this statement is to dismiss any other theory other than the official one and that any other theory must have “extrordinary evidence” in order to refute the official theory, let us look first at what constitutes a conspiracy. A conspiracy is “an agreement to perform together an illegal, treacherous, or evil act. ” The official “conspiracy theory” says that (I quote from David Ray Griffin’s book Debunking 911 Debunking) “Here’s what the government’s conspiracists believe: 19 hijackers with box-cutters defeated the most sophisticated defense system in history. Hani Hanjour, who could barely fly a Piper Cub, flew an astounding trajectory to crash Flight 77 into the Pentagon, the most well-protected building on earth. Other hijacker pilots, by flying planes into two buildings of the World Trade Center, caused three of them to collapse straight down, totally, and at virtually free-fall speed” Where is the “extrordinary evidence” that validates this theory?

    Then what I understand from the rest of your position is that you are unwilling to look at any contrary evidence unless it is validated by an expert in that field and only if they are not “911 Truth” supporters. Yet you have no problem believing the statements as fact without any physical evidence provided from a group that comes from the very group that is under suspicion. It would be as if I were quoting Osama Bin Laden as my main source of information as to how the United States has terrorized the middle east for decades and is ruled by Satan himself (although some of us would argue that this is actually true) :)

  • I agree with Bluedahlia. Make the other post Public and update the time stamp so it is on the first page.

  • Nice point oldwolf, in fact the FBI has stated that they don’t have enough evidence to charge Bin Laden with the crime of 9/11.

    It’s not listed on his Most Wanted Sheet.

    where is the “extraordinary evidence” that Osama had anything to do with it?

  • gorn sez:
    “He has a wife, you know. Her name is….”

    Incontinentia!

  • Willy, OBL IS on the Most Wanted…they want him for his attack to the USS Cole, if Im not mistaken.

  • Thanks Willy, this point is also made with many of the other “Terrorists” that we have held in Guantanamo that there is not enough evidence to hold them. I have also seen in one of Ted Rall’s articles that some of these so called “Terrorists” are actually former “Freedom Fighters” in other countries that we were supporting prior to 9/11 and that we “sold out” in order to get cooperation from other countries for our “War on Terror”.

  • gorn by any other name

    “Then what I understand from the rest of your position is that you are unwilling to look at any contrary evidence unless it is validated by an expert in that field and only if they are not “911 Truth” supporters.”

    You are making an incorrect summary of my position. I am perfectly willing to look at contrary evidence. But when I see two seemingly credible answers that point in different directions, I choose not to embrace either as an absolute truth.

    “19 hijackers with box-cutters defeated the most sophisticated defense system in history”

    I’m pretty sure that defense system was not calibrated to the unprecedented situation of commercial aircraft flying off course. I hope it is now.

    “Other hijacker pilots, by flying planes into two buildings of the World Trade Center, caused three of them to collapse straight down, totally, and at virtually free-fall speed” Where is the “extrordinary evidence” that validates this theory?”

    References have been cited already.

    I find the grand internal conspiracy theory substantially more complex and problematic than the default view that a band of terrorists perpetrated the attack. Therefore the former requires correspondingly more extraordinary evidence than the latter.

    Of course if you start with a different assumption than I do, you’ll end up with different results. That’s fair enough, but I’m comfortable with my approach.

  • Yes Juan he is on the most wanted, but nothing for 9/11. Which is what our adminstration wants everyone to believe he was the mastermind, but no evidence.

  • gorn by any other name

    Incontinentia Buttocks!

  • Gorn, I think you are one of my fav posters back in TP along with Just plain mad, dlet and big papa when it comes to humility for US actions…

    I have great appreciation for you.

    But never in the history of mankind a building have fallen due to fire.

    Never in the history of mankind, bodies have vaporized due to a plane crash.

    Never in the history of mankind a building had a perfect vertical free fall due to structure failure.

    Never in the history of mankind a terrorist attack was NOT criminally investigated and yet all the physical evidence was sent to China as fast as possible.

    Never in the history of mankind, such a huge event had an independent investigation 4 years AFTER it happened.

    Maybe they didnt plan it…who can be sure? Ok. But those are some extreme coincidences.

  • The concern about the initial headline for this article reminded me of this idea I mentioned earlier:

    I’m thinking of putting a statement in our “About” section to the effect that, “The opinions expressed in the articles here are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of all TPZoo members.”

    I know it’s not much, but it’s kind of a catch-all disclaimer for us all getting thrown in the same boat for somebody else’s post.

  • juanc says “Willy, OBL IS on the Most Wanted…they want him for his attack to the USS Cole, if Im not mistaken.”

    Yeah, they have extraordinary evidence for that one.

    I guess they didn’t want him bad enough to arrest him when he was in the American hospital in Dubui.

  • Oh damn, I forgot the last name. :D

    Do you want the lollipop back? It’s got a cat hair on it. :P

  • Eggy says ““The opinions expressed in the articles here are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of all TPZoo members.””

    I will go for that.

  • “I’m pretty sure that defense system was not calibrated to the unprecedented situation of commercial aircraft flying off course. I hope it is now.”

    Actually this was refuted by many documents that involved Aircraft that have strayed off course. The FAA has guidelines for the military to intervene for just this event. They have guidelines for both a hijacking and unresponsive aircraft. These guidelines were in place prior to 9/11 and continue today. There is also documentation that the Gov’t has been aware of planes being used as a means for Terrorists to attack the US and response to these situations well before 9/11.

    “But when I see two seemingly credible answers that point in different directions, I choose not to embrace either as an absolute truth.”

    But yet you seem to be unwilling to wonder why there are two credible answers and if there are 2 answers, which is correct and how do we find out which is correct and which is not? You seem to only want to continue with what you have been told by experts even though there are other experts that disagree with their conclusions.

  • gorn says “I’m pretty sure that defense system was not calibrated to the unprecedented situation of commercial aircraft flying off course. I hope it is now.”

    you mean to tell me you know what the limitations of the Pentagons Billion dollar Air Defense System is?

    Besides, Gorn, FEMA had just run drills on the possibility of Aircrafts being hijacked and used as weapons and the Pentagon had, in 2000 run a “aircraft crashed into the Pentagon as weapon” drill. A year before.

    So they may have considered the possibility.

  • To follow on what Willy said, the FBI had ongoing investigation of some of the allegeded hijackers prior to 9/11 and their investigation was called off by higher officials with no explanation as to why. If that doesn’t send up Flags what does?

  • Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

    That is my position too.

    In my humble opinion, those who claim the Bush administration was involved in the planning, execution of the attacks, or at the very least was an accomplice in the attacks, have failed to meet the burden of proof.

    Most of the arguments are actually false dichotomies, post hoc fallacies, ad hoc explanations, appeal to consequences or emotions, or simply appeals to spite.

    I despise this administration for all they’ve done both domestically and abroad. There is enough to blame them for, all of which is actual and tangible.

  • And lets address the real heart of the matter.

    Many Progressives think this issue will distract moderate voters from the left.

    As much has been stated, elsewhere…

    Since when does the search for Truth become dependant on election cycles?

    Juan excellantly points out some key things that had never happened in history, that we are supposed to accept until a “regime change”?

    The facts are what they are. Lets call for a real investigation, like Kucinich and Conyers and many others and let the chips fall where they may.

    We all derserve the Truth.

  • When the towers were first being planned in the 1950’s, they planned on constucting them to withstand that exact scenario. The government had contingency plans. They were running mock drills of the very same thing that very same day!

  • Very well stated Willy. It is my belief that you can’t move on until you have addressed the issues. They just keep coming back.

  • Gregor;

    http://www.ae911truth.org/

    these are engineers and architects, with Peer Reviewed Studies on multiple elements of the Collapse of the 3 buildings.

    http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/

    this is a growing group of ex military, cia, pentagon, and other officials who are calling for a new investigation into 9/11.

    http://physics911.net/

    and this is Physics 9/11 scientific studies about what happened and couldn’t have happened.

    This is the root of my understanding of these events.

    they are not “…the arguments are actually false dichotomies, post hoc fallacies, ad hoc explanations, appeal to consequences or emotions, or simply appeals to spite”

  • would someone mind getting my comment out of the spam bin please?

  • You’re welcome.

    Signed,
    Pedro

  • So what is the burden of proof? All the evidence was neatly cleaned up and destroyed before it could be used in an investigation. Exactly the same way the Justice Department and the Administration has concealed any information that could be used against them. How can anyone provide “extraordinary evidence” when no one in our Gov’t is willing to investigate. The problem is that 9/11 is and still being used to destroy our way of life, to take away our Freedoms based on this unique event. This event(not necessarily WTC) was even proposed by the very same individual who was in control of the 9/11 commision report which is being used as the basis for arguing the official conspiracy theory.

  • When the judge is dirty, there is no fair trial.

  • The evidence is becoming extraordinary…

    only people don’t know about it because the MSM (the same MSM everyone here is discussed with) will not show ANY of it.

    All I hope for is that people just look for themselves.

    that is it.

  • Amen Willy :)

  • Willy seZ:
    The facts are what they are. Lets call for a real investigation, like Kucinich and Conyers and many others and let the chips fall where they may.
    We all derserve the Truth.

    I agree with that wholeheartedly.

  • exactly, Blue and wolf.

    Look up Philip Zelikow and see how tied into the administration and Condi Rice he is,

    he was the Executive Director of the 9/11 Commission Report.

  • I have to run, all.

    It has been very nice chatting with all of you, again.

    All of you. :)

    even….Pedro

    (hail Pedro)

  • Nite Willy

  • Good night, willy. Thanks for all you’ve done.

  • Gorn and Gregor, I understand the need for “extraordinary evidence” and hope you keep looking for it. But for me it wasn’t one piece of evidence, it was the avalanche of little things that made me question why this event happened. So good luck on your journey for the Truth whereever it may lead you.

    Nite all

  • Zoo:

    Willy sex???

    Could you be more discrete? ;)

  • Oh shit, I did that again….

    I’m fixing it!

  • gorn by any other name

    “Is that easy to lie to a country.”

    Juan, lying and pulling off a mega-conspiracy are not equivalent.

    And I would note that the lie of WMD was exposed by incontrovertible evidence and leaks, so we should certainly expect something on the scale of the alleged conspiracy to be exposed the same way, more readily.

    And thank you for your kind words, my friend. Today I need them. :)

  • :) how long do you think my memory is?

  • gorn by any other name

    Sorry I had to drop out again. Plenty of interesting comments. I’ll give a couple quick answers but as usual the readers have probably gone off to bed and will miss it. Oh well, I’m talking to myself.

    willy: “Since when does the search for Truth become dependant on election cycles?”

    Since never. This is one of those false dichotomy things.

    I’m not proposing that you don’t follow your passion. For my part, I have different priorities. I find it far more important to get Republicans out of the WH than pursue what you see as an overriding Truth, and as I’ve suggested, your search will be easier if my goal is met.

    juan: Again I appreciate your kind words. Your questions are good ones and I’d like to see authoritative answers. However, there is no reason to believe that the answers to your questions relate to 9/11 Truth theory. You list a bunch of things that never happened before (supposedly, although I don’t take that assertion as gospel either). But you know what? An event like 9/11 is unprecedented.

    Zooey: you can keep the lollipop, hair included.

    All: thanks for the discourse. I think our positions are all pretty clear.

  • gorn by any other name

    Interesting quotes from Noam Chomsky that I just came across. Look at the part in BOLD below. I am amazed (and perversely pleased) that it is a replica of my own position that I have been harping here for the past couple of days.

    “…I am not persuaded by the assumption that much documentation and other evidence has been uncovered. To determine that, we’d have to investigate the alleged evidence. Take, say, the physical evidence. There are ways to assess that: submit it to specialists — of whom there are thousands — who have the requisite background in civil-mechanical engineering, materials science, building construction, etc., for review and analysis; and one cannot gain the required knowledge by surfing the internet. In fact, that’s been done, by the professional association of civil engineers. Or, take the course pursued by anyone who thinks they have made a genuine discovery: submit it to a serious journal for peer review and publication. To my knowledge, there isn’t a single submission.”

    “I think this reaches the heart of the matter. One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. How do you personally set priorities? That’s of course up to you. I’ve explained my priorities often, in print as well as elsewhere, but we have to make our own judgments.”

    “…I don’t see any reason to accept the presuppositions. As for the consequences, in one of my first interviews after 9/11 I pointed out the obvious: every power system in the world was going to exploit it for its own interests: the Russians in Chechnya, China against the Uighurs, Israel in the occupied territories,… etc., and states would exploit the opportunity to control their own populations more fully through “prevention of terrorism acts” and the like. By the “who gains” argument, every power system in the world could be assigned responsibility for 9/11.”

    “I think the Bush administration would have had to be utterly insane to try anything like what is alleged, for their own narrow interests, and do not think that serious evidence has been provided to support claims about actions that would not only be outlandish, for their own interests, but that have no remote historical parallel. The effects, however, are all too clear, namely, what I just mentioned: diverting activism and commitment away from the very serious ongoing crimes of state.”

  • gorn by any other name

    juan – regarding your question about your list of “firsts”. I guess this is one of the regular talking points of the 9/11 Truth movement.

    Here’s one considered response:

    http://www.debunking911.com/firsttime.htm

    Of course a true believer may discard such reasoning as “tripe” or “crap”. For my part, the reasoning is similar to what I would have come up with if I was spending time coming up with answers (I hinted at a similar theme in the previous message above).

    Again, I will say that this rationale makes sense to me and undercuts any claim that these “firsts”, in and of themselves, constitute extraordinary evidence.

    As usual, my conclusion is provisional and I’m open to learning otherwise, but the burden of proof here is on those who are making the amazing claims.

    THANKS GUMMITCH FOR THIS GREAT SITE!

  • gorn says responding to my elections cycles question;

    “This is one of those false dichotomy things.

    For my part, I have different priorities. I find it far more important to get Republicans out of the WH than pursue what you see as an overriding Truth, and as I’ve suggested, your search will be easier if my goal is met.”

    The reference someone made to “false dichotomy” in 9/11 theories, was about the theories themselves.

    You yourself have stated, several times (would you like me to go get them?) that you don’t think this kind of attention is good for either the credibility of this site or the left agenda of, as you put it “regime change”.

    You actually wrote that this issue would drive the moderate voters from our “party” and that you think it should be addressed after the “regime change”.

    So, what I typed isn’t a “…false dichotomy things.”.

    It is an honest statement of general purpose.

  • gorn says “juan – regarding your question about your list of “firsts”. I guess this is one of the regular talking points of the 9/11 Truth movement.”

    What JuanC carefully listed were, in fact, facts…not “talking points”

    why don’t you join a discussion with us and we can go over them one at a time, and you too could see they are just simply facts.

    oh, that is right…you have already addressed the reasons you won’t do that.

    gravity and the law of conservation of motion aren’t “talking points”, they too are facts.

    So is the melting point core tempature of structural steel, it is a fact that anyone can look up on “the Google”.

  • gorn says “I find it far more important to get Republicans out of the WH than pursue what you see as an overriding Truth, and as I’ve suggested, your search will be easier if my goal is met.”

    you can clearly see on my site and with my work here, the efforts that I am putting forth to achieve the same goal.

    I would like to see the efforts what it is you are doing that achieves the same goal. I have no intention of waiting 17 months to get rid of this rogue administration.

  • gorn says “. To my knowledge, there isn’t a single submission.”

    Noam Chomsky is with a doubt one of the brightest minds in this country today.

    But on this count he is wrong. Every paper on the http://www.ae911truth.org/ site has been subjected to peer review…. and many has been submited to him personally.

    Interestingly, the research data, the calculations, and the examined evidence (as well as the infamous computer model) from the NIST report HAS NOT been submited for peer review.

  • As a side note; I read that interview with Mr. Chomsky awhile ago and I was very disappointed in him.

    His final evaluation of the apparent suspention of several laws of physics that day (he does, unlike some people gorn acknowledge that certain parts of the collapse theory don’t hold up to the prevailing laws of physics) … his final evaluation is to say…

    that even in a controled test situation, some unexplained things happen.

    They apparently all happened, the same day, to three different buildings, one not even hit by a plane.

    The first time in history of steel framed buildings.

  • gorn quotes Chomsky with “I think this reaches the heart of the matter. One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be…”

    Please see “Clear and Present Danger of their Lies” at http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/the-clear-and-present-danger-of-lies/
    it is an essay I wrote about the progression of this regime from the early ’90s and how they are linked in with the old “Team B” that sold us the “Soviet Menace” lies in the 80s.

  • Again, we are back to the “distracting from real crimes” and pulling energy away from “the movement” rationale for not pursueing an investigation.

    On several of Chomsky’s points, I have shown where his is just flat out wrong in his stated opinion about 9/11Truth.

    I hate to have to say it because I think on most issues he is a brilliant man but here, for some reason, reason and logic seem to take a back seat.

  • Good morning Willy. Have you seen this?
    http://www.bradblog.com/?p=5039#more-5039

  • Go to the first debunking site that gorn links to and Look at the two pictures of the buildings that show (as they put it, why the Towers “collapsed” straight down into dust as opposed to other buildings that have fallen over (there is that pesky laws of physics thing again))

    If you look at their “credible proof” it shows the model of the Towers WITHOUT THE CENTRAL CORE COLUMNS!

    They are gone.

    47 massive steel columns that make up the backbone of the Towers…LEFT OUT OF THE EQUATION!

    After drawing literally hundreds of small columns for the other ‘building”model (the one that falls over and obeys the laws of physics) they say in responce to critics who have noted the missing columns….

    “Conspiracy theorists will be quick to point out this photo doesn’t show the core columns but this isn’t here to show how many stick figures someone can create.”

    THEY PUT SEVERAL HUNDRED “STICK FIGURES” IN THE OTHER ONE AND THE ONE THAT IS UNDER INVESTIGATION … THEY DIDN’T WANT TO SHOW OFF THE STICK FIGURES?

    If you want to believe in a story that needs this kind of manipulation of evidence in order to work, fine….

  • nwmuse thank you I hadn’t seen it. i have bookmarked it.

    The majority of America knows something is wrong with this story… and apparently, they want a new investigation into it.

    i guess Philip Zelikow’s “whitewash” didn’t hold much water.

    thank you for that.

  • gorn by any other name

    willy: “So, what I typed isn’t a “…false dichotomy things.”.

    I disagree.

    1. It makes the assumption that the only truth worth seeking is about the conspiracy theory.

    2. It suggests that this blog is the only place for you to seek your truth. It is not. But my comments were regarding this blog.

    See the quote from Noam Chomsky. It’s up to you to find your own priorities. I have mine.

    I have, however, suggested that the search for yours will be a lot easier post election.

  • gorn by any other name

    willy: “What JuanC carefully listed were, in fact, facts…not “talking points””

    Call it what you wish. He identified a specific set of points that were nearly verbatim addressed on the debunking site as typical points raised by enthusiasts.

    I think my characterization is fair.

  • gorn says “I have, however, suggested that the search for yours will be a lot easier post election.”

    too late. we will be in Iran.

    and what makes you think the DLC’s “Hillary” will want to investigate? She had investments in Defence Contractors just like “old Georgey”.

  • gorn says “I think my characterization is fair.”

    I reccomend everyone goes to the Debunking Site that gorn posted and look ate the representations of the structure of the Twin Towers and ask yourself if that is a “fair” representation of how they were built.

  • gorn by any other name

    willy: “why don’t you join a discussion with us and we can go over them one at a time, and you too could see they are just simply facts.”

    Thank you for the offer. I already pointed to a link that addresses these issues to my personal satisfaction. What would be the purpose of repeating it?

    “oh, that is right…you have already addressed the reasons you won’t do that.”

    Really, you clearly know my position on this, so there could be no purpose to a statement like the above other than being smarmy.

  • gorn says “It suggests that this blog is the only place for you to seek your truth. It is not. But my comments were regarding this blog.”

    you have made it quite clear about what you think should and should not be discussed on “this blog”.

  • Gorn says: “As usual, my conclusion is provisional and I’m open to learning otherwise, but the burden of proof here is on those who are making the amazing claims.”

    But when we provide that, you are unable to look. So the breakdown of this discourse is not brought about by us, it is yourself. Oldwolf pointed out the huge flaws from the site that you pull your information on. Critical thinking requires that objective and scientific methods are used to figure out the truth of things without bias. The very site you link to and information you draw from makes a mockery of the scientific method. And it is the holy bible for you claims of sceptisism. They had a theory and modeled experiments around it. They left out key evidence. Any real scientist knows this is wrong and immoral. Those of us who seek the truth are not the “fringe”, except by those who desperately wish us to be. You get rid of truth and justice and society is gone.
    Your sole purpose it to get rid of this administration. You can’t put a band-aid on when the patient is hemorraging and hope it will save the patient.
    To Willy and Trip and us other “loonies”: I truely believe the truth will come out in the end. Probably thanks to people like us. And when the truth is on our side, really, all other arguments just seem shallow.

  • gorn by any other name

    willy: “I would like to see the efforts what it is you are doing that achieves the same goal.”

    I don’t need your validation, thanks.

    “I have no intention of waiting 17 months to get rid of this rogue administration.”

    Good for you. Tell you what, if you succeed in bringing down the administration prior to the election by revealing their complicity in this grand conspiracy, I will be the first praising you.

    Hell might freeze over too, but good luck, for sure.

  • gorn says “…being smarmy.”

    Just would like you to address these issues out in the open and in a real time discussion with me and others.

    they are important to our cause. Regime change

  • gorn by any other name

    willy: “Again, we are back to the “distracting from real crimes” and pulling energy away from “the movement” rationale for not pursuing an investigation.”

    I’m not back to it. I never left it.

  • gorn says “Hell might freeze over too, but good luck, for sure.”

    Thank you for your concern. You do as much as you can to slow and halt the call for progressives to look at the facts…

    ..and I will do my best to expose them to the light of day.

    One plan protects the administration… and one plan tries to topple it.

    you decide which is which.

  • gorn says “I’m not back to it. I never left it.”

    then I am sure you won’t mind sharing with the readers all the extensive work you are doing to expose the “real crimes”.

  • 9/11Truth and other organizations (Code Pink, 9/11 Patiots for Truth, 9/11 Firefighters…ect.) are working hard to expose crimes of this administration in order to REMOVE them before more damage is done.

    In Iraq and Iran and elsewhere in the world, as well as to our civil liberties.

  • gorn by any other name

    willy: “The majority of America knows something is wrong with this story… and apparently, they want a new investigation into it.”

    http://www.debunking911.com/zogby.htm

    First, you don’t speak for the majority of Americans. You speak for yourself. Second, my guess is the majority of Americans hold the government accountable for failures but does not believe they planted bombs at WTC and shot a missile at the Pentagon.

    Since the administration never admits failure, and there were clearly failures in 9/11, your statement is technically true. But it certainly says nothing about American’s belief in your conspiracy.

  • Blue Dahlia says “The very site you link to and information you draw from makes a mockery of the scientific method.”

    Absolutely right. and like she says, Oldwolf did a very nice job showing serious flaws in this “debunking” site’s scientific meathod.

  • gorn by any other name

    willy: “too late. we will be in Iran.”

    Possibly. That could happen tomorrow, regardless of what you or I say.

    If you think pressing the conspiracy theory will help, I think you are deluded, but it’s a free country.

    Personally I think using all our energy to be vocal and protest by every means about not attacking Iran or any other country will be more effective than chasing a windmill.

    “and what makes you think the DLC’s “Hillary” will want to investigate? She had investments in Defence Contractors just like “old Georgey”.”

    I don’t believe I said the next administration would “want” to investigate. You are putting words in my mouth. What I said was that your goal will be easier to achieve after the election, and easier to achieve if the next president is not a Republican. I did not say it would be easy to achieve or automatic.

  • gorn says “Since the administration never admits failure, and there were clearly failures in 9/11…”

    that AGAIN is based on the ASSUMPTION that 19 guys (opps, that’s right several are still alive and the FBI admits it…but won’t revise the list :( ) defeated the most advanced air defense system IN THE WORLD.

    You know, since that story came out hours after the attacks…

    and the passenger lists (the ones that have been released) don’t have the hijackers names on them….

    and the FBI has no real credible evidence who committed these crimes…

    You seem to be content to just keep plugging away at THE ADMINISTRATIONS STORY… regardless of fact.

    And you seem to want to wait the 17 months for them to be ‘removed” by the election…

    why would you, a “progressive” want that?

  • gorn says “…chasing a windmill.”

    windmills don’t move. it’s “tilting at windmills”.

  • gorn by any other name

    bluedahlia: “But when we provide that, you are unable to look. ”

    willy: “Just would like you to address these issues out in the open and in a real time discussion with me and others.”

    I think my position is quite clear on this, but I’ll summarize it again. I find the conspiracy proposition incredible, thus I am looking for credible reasons to believe it.

    I have at least surface-read the arguments you have presented here and on referenced sites. I have at least surface-read the arguments presented from the debunking site referenced by gummitch. The result of that reading is I am satisified that the conspiracy theory remains incredible. That doesn’t mean every technical point on the debunking site is correct, and it doesn’t mean that every technical point you would make is incorrect. It means I’m satisfied on this issue and do not find it worthwhile to join your pursuit. I, in fact, find it counterproductive.

    Now, nothing I’m going to say is going to change your mind, and vice versa. If you succeed in your quest, that will surely change my mind. Good luck to you.

  • Anyone reading this thread can come to their own conclusions about my motives… and yours, gorn.

    And since, again, you resort to insulting dismisses labels, you and I are done on this topic.

    I keep thinking that I have to answer your little “copy and paste” arguments to clarifiy for the readers the flaws in your logic…

    but I underestimate them.

    Your flaws are obvious, as is your motive.

    I will not be insulted by you on this or any other subject again.

    Especially when you posses so little information on the subject, and you do so little to achieve this “regime change” you talk about.

    Of course, that is aside from trying to act as Gatekeeper in this site.

    I will not address your comments again.

  • gorn by any other name

    willy: “defeated the most advanced air defense system IN THE WORLD”

    For my part, I am satisfied with the answers already provided.

    This is like a broken record.

  • gorn by any other name

    willy: “gorn says “…chasing a windmill.” windmills don’t move. it’s “tilting at windmills”.”

    Oh, thank you so very much, wise one. What’s next, spelling and grammar posts?

  • gorn by any other name

    willy spews a post with insults while accusing me of same, then rants, incoherently:

    “Of course, that is aside from trying to act as Gatekeeper in this site.”

    Huh? Oh, another conspiracy theory.

    “I will not address your comments again.”

    Praise god almighty!

  • It’s not about “spelling and grammar” gorn.

    It’s about correctly quoting a referenc material.

    it’s about being “well read”.

    But I guess that doesn’t happen when you are “surface-read” as you just stated.

    It’s just an example, gorn. nothing more.

  • gorn by any other name

    willy: “it’s about being “well read”.”

    Well, that was a short boycott.

    Your arrogance is amazing. You extrapolate from “chasing windmills” to determine I am not “well read”. I have read Cervantes, if you must know.

    You have also made disparaging comments implying that I do nothing, or little, to help the progressive cause. I make a statement of some humility about having “surface read” so as to not imply I am some deep expert, and from that you make another disparaging comment about my not researching to your satisfaction. Humility apparently is foreign to you.

    Let’s be clear: you know NOTHING about me. Nothing. You cannot possibly draw the broad conclusions about me that you have stated. All you can do is conjecture based on a few electronic interactions. The fact that you draw broad conclusions from such meager material, and are arrogant enough to pontificate about it publicly, is perhaps telling of your thought processes.

    If this is the extent of your critical thinking process that has resulted in your conspiracy conclusions, it is not impressive.

    And your posts are at least as erroneous as mine. Should I count the number of errors in your rant post (The one where you said you wouldn’t respond to me any more)? Unless you go back and edit it, it was almost incoherent with errors.

    Should I have pointed out the time where you made an extra post simply to correct one spelling error, when all you had to do was click “edit” and fix the error?

    No, that would have been petty, wouldn’t it?

    Go back to tilting at your windmill. As I said, if you succeed in knocking it over, I will be praising you, and that is the truth. I will be amazed and impressed.

    While I don’t think much of your critical thinking skills based on this conversation, I wish you no ill will. As I said, good luck with your mission.

  • Let it go Willy. It is not worth it. Like you said. It is apparent who is reading and comprehending and who chooses not to be informed. The best you can do is add posts that offer a topic (not an opinion) and we can debate from there. Gorn has already stated he wants no part of that, so let’s move on.

  • well said, Blue. Moving on…

  • I’m just hoping that one of you (willy or gorn) doesn’t end up running the other one away from TPZoo. I would hate to lose either of you.

    I haven’t been following your conversation, but I urge you not to attack each other personally. That is not constructive.

  • gorn by any other name

    bluedahlia: “It is apparent who is reading and comprehending and who chooses not to be informed. ”

    I could not possibly agree more. Please move on.

  • gorn by any other name

    Egg: “I haven’t been following your conversation, but I urge you not to attack each other personally. That is not constructive.”

    Several times, I have wished willy good luck with his mission. I meant that and stand by it (regardless of my assessment of the likely merit).


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