USA Today reports that nearly twice as many people believe in heaven and hell than in evolution.
The same people offered their wit and wisdom in the Comments section of today’s article about Ron Paul smacking down Mike Huckabee for his ad invoking Jesus, and with “accidental” lighting giving the image of a cross behind him. At least there was no accidental halo. But I digress.
Here’s some of the commentary posted by Average Americans:
When you have Jesus on your side , you’ve got all the intellect you need.
How do you know Jesus Christ favors Huck more than the other candidates? Christ loves us all & doesn’t have favorites!!You haven’t been reading your Bible lately!!!!
Ron Paul is a far-left liberal. He hates Christians and hates everything about War on Terror.
I hope it is an image of the cross…whether intended by Huckabee or by God himself. People forget that our laws are based on the Ten Commandments.
America was a great country way before secular progressiveness. The only thing they have contributed to this country is the current state of moral decay.
To be silent about your religion is a terrible miistake, the Muslims not only are very vocal about Islam but threaten bodily harm to anyone who disagrees.
Many of the great scientists of all time were Creationist Christians.
I see the liberals are out in force today. WIll somebody hand these poor fools a job since they only want hand outs.
non-believers are not fit to be part of the United States
Read the Koran or The Politically Incorrect Guide to Muslims and the Crusade- against the Koran to wear a tie, symbols representing a nation on clothing, to pledge alliegence to other than Islam. Obama only wears a tie when absolutley necessary, refuses to wear an American flag lapel pin, refuses to place hand on heart during playing of national anthem etc
You liberal secular scum make me want to vomit. go to france and join your true brothers.
I particularly enjoyed that last comment. Apparently this guy didn’t get the memo about Sarkozy making it ok to eat French Fries again.
Anyway, we expect this kind of venom from trolls on TP. It’s depressing to find it rampant in the comments on USA Today, the most milquetoast newspaper in the country. This is a good indicator of why we need to keep these people as far from power as possible.
102 Comments
December 18, 2007 at 10:51 pm
I think that people decide to believe into a greater entity because it gives them peace of mind thinking about somebody (a substance, perhaps) making the whole universe with a purpose and because the idea that their beloved ones go to a better place. It would be awful to think that people killed or that passed away don’t go to any place.
It is troublesome to think the universe as a big void of nothingness that will produce complete equilibrium, just to remain that way, for eons and eons.
It has to do with loneliness and fear.
December 18, 2007 at 10:51 pm
Yes, I’m a little drunk. Sorry for the rant.
December 18, 2007 at 10:53 pm
That made sense to me, Juan — loneliness & fear. Very dangerous.
I’m a little drunk myself.
December 18, 2007 at 10:57 pm
I’m sorry to say that USA Today rant sounds like my bro-in-law, and my nephew.
December 18, 2007 at 10:58 pm
I’m a little drunk myself.
Then why don’t you come a little closer…
zzzzzzz….
December 18, 2007 at 11:01 pm
Seriously, I have to struggle a little with some friends of my girlfriend since she has spent a great deal of her life among the “colonial” Mexican citizens…like the wealthy, religious part. And it is really bothersome, though they provide quite a good laughs sometimes.
December 18, 2007 at 11:02 pm
Are you saying the friends are upper class-type people?
December 18, 2007 at 11:05 pm
Why, Juan, we caught you nipping at the sacramental wine! Naughty boy!
I don’t have any problem with anyone’s peace of mind. I say, whatever floats your boat is okay with me. The problem comes when they want to impose their belief system on other people.
Consider the following comment: “To be silent about your religion is a terrible miistake, the Muslims not only are very vocal about Islam but threaten bodily harm to anyone who disagrees.”
What does this say? It’s a mistake for Christians to not be as extreme as Muslim extremists? This goes a little further than warm and fuzzy feelings about one’s own afterlife.
“It would be awful to think that people killed or that passed away don’t go to any place.”
I think that’s mostly a matter of indoctrination and cultural conditioning. Personally, the concept of death-after-death doesn’t bother me at all. I loved my father more than anything, and I miss him terribly, but I get no comfort in the creepy idea that his disembodied soul is floating in a heavenly plane. Wishing something is true doesn’t make it any more real. More to the point, I get all the comfort I need in knowing that he lives on in my thoughts and actions, and in the genes of my children.
“It is troublesome to think the universe as a big void of nothingness that will produce complete equilibrium, just to remain that way, for eons and eons.”
Oh, but the universe is far more wondrous and complex and beautiful than anything dreamed up by any religious mythology. It may eventually reach entropic equilibrium, or crunch back onto itself, but should an outcome billions of years in the future really be the source of depression in beings that will exist for a mere speck of cosmic time?
“It has to do with loneliness and fear.”
That’s absolutely right, but loneliness and fear is a poor basis for a living philosophy, and ultimately it’s intellectually (and to me at least, emotionally) unsatisfying.
December 18, 2007 at 11:09 pm
Yes, Zoo…upper class in the sense of wealth, but really ignorant when it comes to science, social and political issues. To be fair, the vast majority of my friends are like that.
December 18, 2007 at 11:09 pm
Remember the “little bit drunk” part, gorn?
How am I supposed to read that?
December 18, 2007 at 11:09 pm
That must be why you like us so much, Juan.
December 18, 2007 at 11:11 pm
“How am I supposed to read that?”
I’d suggest you hold onto Juan to keep yourself steady.
December 18, 2007 at 11:12 pm
Gorn, I’m in complete agreement with you.
I’m an atheist wholeheartedly, I just was giving some of the relevant excuses of people in order to believe in a higher substance.
December 18, 2007 at 11:12 pm
“To be fair, the vast majority of my friends are like that.”
Catholic guilt complex – a wonderful legacy of colonial Spain.
December 18, 2007 at 11:13 pm
“Gorn, I’m in complete agreement with you.”
I note that your comment followed my suggestion that Zooey hold onto you…
Just sayin…
December 18, 2007 at 11:13 pm
I really shouldn’t drive…
December 18, 2007 at 11:14 pm
gorn is a troublemaker!
December 18, 2007 at 11:15 pm
Since you’re drunk, don’t forget to click on the Hee Haw link at the end of my post.
Goes well with moonshine.
December 18, 2007 at 11:17 pm
Little bit drunk…
December 18, 2007 at 11:17 pm
Party pooper.
December 18, 2007 at 11:17 pm
Catholic guilt complex – a wonderful legacy of colonial Spain.
Boom! Spot on, friend.
You got that extremely right. The vast majority of wealth in this country comes from Jewish and Spanish families…all of them really, really religious and conservatives.
December 18, 2007 at 11:21 pm
Zoo, seriously, don’t drive anywhere.
December 18, 2007 at 11:21 pm
December 18, 2007 at 11:23 pm
I promise, I won’t drive.
December 18, 2007 at 11:25 pm
Now, everything’s OK.
What was that about holding onto me, or something?
December 18, 2007 at 11:25 pm
You said not to drive!
December 18, 2007 at 11:26 pm
Even when Zooey is tanked, she make more sense than the Shrub. Check out tonight’s Hail to the Chimp.
December 18, 2007 at 11:26 pm
Hey, Gorn, please, I know it is really another issue, and I don´t want you to feel offended but you don’t hold the same attitude towards “conspiracy theory” about 9/11, which of course is founded on some valid questions about the events.
December 18, 2007 at 11:28 pm
You lost me, big fella. You’ll have to be more specific.
December 18, 2007 at 11:29 pm
Heh. “Did I say those words?”
Spaghetti monster help us…
December 18, 2007 at 11:31 pm
Well, I don’t want to derail the thread and less to offend you, but sometime ago, you argued with willyloman about 9/11 events, whether they were made by the US govt or not. Your position was a forceful no.
December 18, 2007 at 11:32 pm
That’s Spaghetti Monster (caps). You risk the wrath of her Noodly Appendage if you don’t show proper respect.
December 18, 2007 at 11:35 pm
I beg the pardon of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
My bad.
December 18, 2007 at 11:41 pm
I’m out, folks. Have to get up really early in the morning.
Take care.
December 18, 2007 at 11:43 pm
Goodnight, Juan!
December 18, 2007 at 11:45 pm
Don’t worry about offending me, Juan. You’re my amigo through thick and thin.
“Your position was a forceful no.”
If I gave this impression, I apologize. My position is that the conspiracy theorists have failed to present a credible case that rises to the level I think is necessary.
I think that my attitude here is wholly consistent with my rants on religion: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
[Bracing for another public flogging...]
December 18, 2007 at 11:47 pm
Gorn.
Fair enough.
Night, critters and zookeeper.
December 18, 2007 at 11:48 pm
Later, Juan.
December 18, 2007 at 11:49 pm
Goodnight, Juan.
Gorn, you may anticipate your flogging on another day.
December 18, 2007 at 11:57 pm
Promises, promises…
December 19, 2007 at 12:01 am
Heh.
You seem a bit eager…
December 19, 2007 at 12:03 am
I haven’t been flogged in such a very long time…
December 19, 2007 at 12:04 am
Me neither.
We should start a club for the non-flogged.
December 19, 2007 at 12:07 am
Well, there’s always mutually synchronized remote self-flogging. I think I saw something like that in a Janene Garofalo movie.
December 19, 2007 at 12:10 am
Very Dali-esque.
Sounds like too much planning. I’m not a planner.
December 19, 2007 at 12:13 am
I tried to be spontaneous once, but I fell behind schedule and called it off.
December 19, 2007 at 12:17 am
How very sad.
My plans never go the way they’re supposed to, so I no longer plan.
December 19, 2007 at 12:19 am
I should have put a smiley there…
December 19, 2007 at 12:19 am
Looks like everyone’s jumped out of the sandbox for the night.
December 19, 2007 at 12:20 am
Everyone!?
What am I? Flogged liver?
December 19, 2007 at 12:24 am
[Open mouth, extract foot.]
I meant to say “everyone inferior”.
December 19, 2007 at 12:26 am
Heh.
I was gone all day, and there were only about 20 comments while I was away. Depressing.
December 19, 2007 at 12:27 am
hi.
scotch is my friend tonight.
life after life – all is energy. If the natural state of matter is to decay, then why the hell is matter continually recombining in more and more complex life-forms?
I have seen the living and breathing universe.
9/11 – cell phones. The “Official Explanation” is impossible.
Pentagon – the only known time a civilian jet airliner has completely disintegrated upon impact. Again, impossible.
WTC 7 – the only known time a structure has suffered symetrical collapse as the result of random fires. Again, impossible.
Towers I and II. Collapse of steel and concrete center cores at the same rate as the free-falling girders through the air. Again, impossible.
Conspiracy theory: a man in a cave in Afghanistan planned and carried off these attacks that somehow defied the known laws of physics. Impossible.
December 19, 2007 at 12:30 am
What number scotch is that?
Wanna join our club for the non-flogged, BnF?
December 19, 2007 at 12:31 am
The floggings will continue until morale improves.
December 19, 2007 at 12:32 am
“The whip! The whip!”
“No! No! Not the whip!”
“The whip! The whip!”
“No! No! Anything but the whip!”
“Anything?”
“The whip! The whip!”
December 19, 2007 at 12:33 am
See? That’s the problem. We’re the non-flogged.
December 19, 2007 at 12:33 am
3 scotches – (dubbles)
1 pinot noir – bubbly
December 19, 2007 at 12:34 am
Heh. That sounds like Monty Python.
December 19, 2007 at 12:35 am
I’ve only had one glass of wine.
December 19, 2007 at 12:35 am
ye’ve been floggin wit’ Motny Python?
Ponty Mython?
Monty Python?
December 19, 2007 at 12:36 am
If she weighs the same as a duck, she’s a witch.
December 19, 2007 at 12:36 am
an’ I only had one glass o’ bubbly
December 19, 2007 at 12:37 am
Ah, a little flogging after all! Thanks BnF.
“life after life – all is energy. If the natural state of matter is to decay, then why the hell is matter continually recombining in more and more complex life-forms?”
The universe tends toward entropy on the whole. Localized systems exhibit very different behavior from the whole. The enormous energy source known as Sol provides the necessary input for all biological processes.
This is a great example of a simple data point sounding impressive while being presented wholly out of context, yet being quite wrong.
Regarding the 9-11 stuff, I don’t really want to be in the role of debunker. Too time-consuming. A good starting point is here:
http://www.debunking911.com/quick.htm
December 19, 2007 at 12:37 am
you sayin our witch1 weighs the same as a duck?
some duck!
December 19, 2007 at 12:37 am
A water glass?
December 19, 2007 at 12:39 am
metaphysically speaking, the Universe resonates most sympathetically with the feelings of Love and Gratitude.
There’s more to the Universe than can be measured by current technology.
December 19, 2007 at 12:39 am
Some witch!
December 19, 2007 at 12:40 am
Gorn sez:
Ah, a little flogging after all! Thanks BnF.
Ohhh, that’s just wrong….
December 19, 2007 at 12:41 am
Whatever floats your boat and toots your flute.
“Faith is an island in the setting sun, but proof is the bottom line for everyone.” – Paul Simon
December 19, 2007 at 12:41 am
I tried to be spontaneous once, but I fell behind schedule and called it off. – gorn
I love this. Thanks for the chuckle.
December 19, 2007 at 12:41 am
Zooey, desperate times call for desperate measures. I mean, you turned me down after all.
December 19, 2007 at 12:42 am
been to the debunking sites.
done independent research, too.
one topic: debunk the cell phone calls. can’t be done. Official explanation says the commercial aircraft climbed to 40k feet just before the airphone and cellphone calls began. Problem is, the technology to make cell phone calls possible from commercial aircraft hasn’t been installed in U.S. carriers yet. Not possible = impossible.
We’ve been fed a lie that is easier and more comfortable to swallow than the truth.
December 19, 2007 at 12:45 am
a champaigne flute – Reidle crystal. Bought in Vienna and personally transported across the Atlantic and U.S. to my house.
ok now I’m braggin’ – sorry
December 19, 2007 at 12:45 am
I did?
December 19, 2007 at 12:46 am
I had a water glass of wine.
But just one…
December 19, 2007 at 12:46 am
Well, Zooey has never turned me down!
on – yes.
down – never!
December 19, 2007 at 12:46 am
Let’s assume for the sake of argument that the cell phone story is impossible (i.e., that you have all the facts). Even so, this would only be evidence that this part of the story was concocted, rather like the false heroics reported of female soldier being rescued from the hospital. That does not make the rest of the grand conspiracy theory any more true.
Isolated data points do not prove the grand case.
December 19, 2007 at 12:49 am
Gotta go for awhile. I’ll check back later for more flogging fun.
December 19, 2007 at 12:51 am
Uh oh, it’s getting deep in here.
I’m off to bed. Goodnight, guys.
December 19, 2007 at 12:54 am
ooohhh!
I say Zooey has turned me on and she’s off to bed!
sweet dreams, princess!
December 19, 2007 at 3:05 am
BnF: “debunk the cell phone calls. can’t be done.”
I don’t accept proclamations of this sort as authoritative, so I decided to spend a little time researching the cell phone question in particular because it strikes me as one of the less ridiculous and more intriguing points of the various conspiracy notions.
Having spent a couple of hours searching and reading, I can only conclude that the information is inconclusive.
Some information points:
- evidence seems to indicate that cell phone calls are indeed possible under the right circumstances; the study cited by conspiracy theorists, although conducted under non-comparable conditions in non-comparable aircraft, indicates that at lower altitudes and speeds cell phone connectivity is possible
- a study by Carnegie Mellon conducted on 37 flights on 737s and one on an Airbus indicated that cell phone calls were “observed in all phases of flight” and that “cellular telephone activity is appreciable”. I don’t believe the study looked into the success or quality of the connections, and I’m not inclined to read this 76 page report on RF spectrum analysis tonight – call me nuts.
- as I understand it, according to the 9/11 Commission report, some 30 calls were made in total, of which only two were cell phone calls and the other 28 via Airphone; this does not strike me as impossible
- I haven’t seen any study indicating any attempt to map the alleged calls against the altitude and speed of the various aircraft when the calls were made, or indicating which were Airphone and which were cell phone. I haven’t seen any study attempting to model the exact scenario of these doomed aircraft (I guess I should say allegedly doomed, depending on which conspiracy theory is holding sway) – the precise 4-dimensional flight paths (lat, lon, atltitude, speed), where the calls were made, which cell service was used, etc. In short, the possibilities run the spectrum and so at best, drawing definitive conclusions is premature.
- the 9-11 Research site indicates that “most of the calls from Flight 93 were apparently made from airphones, not cell phones, with the few cell phone calls apparently happening late in the flight when the jetliner’s altitude was low”, however the source of this information is not indicated
- the rationale behind conspirators conducting such an elaborate fabrication as this, and the logistical planning required to implement it, is not clear to me. For example, if this is faked, why 30 phone calls? Why not just one or two? Why any at all? Why do conspiracy theories so routinely ignore questions like this? Why do they accept that controlled demolition of the WTC was necessary when simply flying the planes into the buildings would have already constituted a shocking act of terrorism? There are many such “whys” in these theories that require us to accept incredibly and unnecessarily complex planning, and these “whys” are simply ignored in favor of the most complicated possible scenarios.
My conclusion is that the information available here is weak. It’s weak from either side, but the burden of proof here is on the conspiracy side because the conspiracy tale is so unnecessarily complex and intricate that it requires more than scattershot information points, the bulk of which have been convincingly debunked as far as I can tell.
I’m sure this exercise is a waste of time, though, because my experience is those invested in grand conspiracies are unlikely to be swayed by any amount of argument. I could spend weeks or months on detailed investigations, interview experts, and publish a series of essays on this site and it would make no difference, I’m pretty sure.
Some will of course suggest that the reverse is true – no amount of evidence would convince me. I believe this is not the case. As a skeptic, I work hard at keeping an open mind. But as the saying goes, while it’s good it keep an open mind, you don’t want it open so wide that your brain falls out.
Cheers…
December 19, 2007 at 8:55 am
Gorn,
I, too, was a skeptic.
But the most damning evidence of all against the government is the fact that the Bush Administration refused to conduct a criminal investigation. The Administration destroyed evidence instead of preserving it. Now, why would a Government refuse to investigate the greatest crime ever perpetrated upon its citizens?
December 19, 2007 at 9:07 am
Indeed, BnF. Also, why was the anthrax attacks never fully investigated? As soon as it was found to be weapons grade from a US military instalation – that’s the where it all ends. A major bio terrorism warfare agent is used on US citizens and it is still unknown what happened? I call bs on that one, too. It can’t all be coincidence because we want it to be.
December 19, 2007 at 9:57 am
BREAKING!
The building which houses the Office of the Vice President is on fire.
No, Darth was not there. (damn!)
My first thought: “Well, that’s one way to get rid of documents.”
December 19, 2007 at 11:50 am
True, it was some half-wit Dutch communist who did it – you’ll see.
December 19, 2007 at 2:10 pm
“Now, why would a Government refuse to investigate the greatest crime ever perpetrated upon its citizens?” – BnF
One really good reason, and one that strikes me as plain and obvious, is they wanted to divert attention away from chasing guys in Afghanistan caves and away from Bush’s buddies in Saudi Arabia, so they could instead follow the Neocon wet dream of reconfiguring the Middle East by attacking Iraq and Iran. It was political opportunism on a grand scale.
This is another one of the “whys”: why would the administration frame OBL when the real target was the oil fields of Iraq and Iran? Wouldn’t it have been much easier to frame Saddam, already a sworn enemy of the US and technically at a state of war?
These obvious motivations imply a different sort of treasonous conspiracy. It’s not as sexy as the extravagant 9-11 Truth conspiracy, but it’s actually impeachment worthy, provable, believable by everyone, and consistent with the general bumbling, theocratic, oil-drenched incompetence of the Bush Administration.
December 19, 2007 at 2:39 pm
I want to also point out another trend of the conspiracy theorists. No answer is ever good enough.
BnF initially stated that the cell phone issue was the biggest question for him. I spent a couple of hours and provided a response on that specific issue. In BnF’s followup, he said nothing about my response on his issue, and instead said: “But the most damning evidence of all against the government is the fact that the Bush Administration refused to conduct a criminal investigation”, thus shifting the target.
I then provided a response to that point, but it’s a point I’ve addressed previously in my lengthy essay on this subject in September.
Bluedahlia then shifted the question to anthrax. Am I now to spend time investigating the anthrax question? And then what? This game can go on forever, not only because there are dozens of such data points, but also because the conversation continues to recycle itself.
Please understand that I am not picking on Bluedahlia or BnF or anyone else. We’re all good people here with good motivations. I’m just pointing out the nature of grand conspiracy theories: there is never an answer that can satisfy true believers who have bought into the theory.
From Wikipedia:
Michael Shermer is the editor of Skeptic magazine, a publication that focuses on reasoned and scientific analysis of extraordinary claims. I note that BnF says he was also a skeptic, but I think being initially skeptical of a grand claim is not what I meant. I meant Skeptic, which I will differentiate here with the capital S.
It’s somewhat analogous to the distinction between the use of the term “theory” in informal discourse, versus “Theory” in the scientific sense. A scientist would refer to the “theory of evolution”. A creationist would say “evolution is only a theory”. There is a fundamental disconnect in word usage between those two examples. The scientific usage roughly equates to “factual” in layman’s terms. The creationist usage roughly equates to “conjectural” in scientific terms.
And so it is with Skepticism. When I refer to being a skeptic, I mean it in the more formal sense. It is a philosophical approach to evaluating the unknown, based on science and reason. It’s quite a bit more formal than being vaguely doubtful about something.
December 19, 2007 at 2:41 pm
Gorn, I mostly agree with you. But I’d throw a little wilful negligence in. If going for Iraq and the oil was, I happen to believe that, the main target for the Bush administration from day #1, then a memo like: “Bin Laden determined to strike in the US” would be a promise not a threat. What a wonderful gift of the fates if you just have to sit and wait for it to happen.
And any investigation would have pointed to that: The wilful act of not doing anything to protect you all. That’s criminal enough in my books.
December 19, 2007 at 2:46 pm
Europeanview, I’m certainly open to your interpretation. It’s plausible, feasible, and fits in with the nefarious characteristics of the Administration.
It may not be true, or it may be true for some but not others. For example, for Bush and Rice, it may be just outright incompetence at play. For the Neocons in the national security hierarchy, and evil beasts like Cheney, willful negligence is not at all unlikely, and if provable it would be treasonous.
December 19, 2007 at 2:53 pm
Gorn, I respect you have taken your own position on this, and you have decided to put your faith in the sources you present. I respect that. I spent a year doing my own researching, and reading a LOT of sources, books, videos, articles, and news MSM sources. The devil is in the details. Nobody will ever convince me that this did not play out like we were told. It isn’t because I have “bought into a conspiracy”, it is simply because it isn’t possible. There are HUNDREDS of pieces that don’t fit. It is too easy to label someone a conspiracy theorist when they question the “Official” conspiracy theory. It seems to me that people have differing degrees of exposure to this subject, and different levels of education and research on it (using varying sources). We are never going to agree, and I am afraid we will also never know what really happened. This administration will never allow real investigations to take place. Basically, that is all people are asking for. Real and independent investigations. Let the truth come out, whatever it may be. Too much was squelched and covered up.
Everyone has serious reasons for believing what they believe, and I think people’s feelings should be respected. It is too tough a subject.
December 19, 2007 at 3:12 pm
I’m comfortable with your assessment, muse. I am all in favor of “real and independent investigations.” And of course I fully respect everyone’s feelings on the subject.
The challenge is for us to be willing accept the results of real and independent investigations.
Unfortunately, the statement “Nobody will ever convince me that this did not play out like we were told” does not bode well for how you may respond in the event that the results don’t match your pre-existing beliefs. A common response would be to declare the investigators either unfit or suffering ulterior motivations.
I have seen scientific, peer-reviewed analyses dismissed in just such a way, while semi-scientific, non-peer-reviewed analyses are accepted without question. It’s not encouraging.
December 19, 2007 at 3:27 pm
I guess I didn’t write that correctly…
Nobody will convince me that this played out like the White House wants us to believe.
Simply, because the ‘facts’ don’t fit. There are SO many little details and actions taken, that most people are unaware of, and when put together create a mountain of questions and doubt – and conflicting, contradicting information. There are just so many questionable, strange actions taken by many obscure people and departments that occurred as well. Those things need to be addressed and answered.
As I labeled my list, the were just too many “coincidences”. I believe in simple coincidences, but this was ridiculous.. The list that I wrote was up to almost 200. That was just my list.
I took the time to write it all down as I found things two years ago when I started down this path. I had an amazing list.. Unfortunately, I never printed it out and managed to lose it off my computer. I don’t have the energy to start looking for it all again. So, I don’t usually get into discussions any more because I have lost all my sources and details.
This was distressing for me. I don’t want to believe what I believe, but I can’t see any way around it given all I have learned. I didn’t come to this easily or lightly. This is deadly serious to me.
Still, I respect open discussion on this.
December 19, 2007 at 3:31 pm
I just want a real, open, independent (multiple in fact) investigations – if that is even still possible beings so much physical evidence has been destroyed or covered up.
That is what most people want. I think there is much to be learned that can help this country move forward, and bring people back together again. It will certainly go a long ways to rebuilding trust.
I shouldn’t even talk about this because it always makes things worse.. Gorn, I was just talking about my own perspective and why I feel the way I do. Its a hard subject for me. That’s why I don’t talk about it much any more.
I do try to be respectful of everyones’ feelings.
December 19, 2007 at 5:18 pm
Muse, I have no problem whatever with what you are saying.
To be honest, I don’t want to talk about this subject either. It was foisted on my by juan (but no worries, juan, I still love you). If I get forced into the subject, I feel compelled to try to offer some clarity.
“Every time I try to get out, they keep pullin’ me back IN!!” – Michael Corleone
December 19, 2007 at 5:23 pm
Thanks Gorn. I feel the same way..
December 19, 2007 at 5:58 pm
Muse, Gorn, I feel that way, too. So I as a rule don’t participate in these discussions. But apart from that, this here was the most interesting and civilised discussion of the topic I’ve seen, ever.
December 19, 2007 at 6:22 pm
Then we’d best quit while we’re ahead.
December 19, 2007 at 11:15 pm
I love that Hee-Haw clip! It’s taking every ounce of self-restraint not to send it to the relatives who sent me this today:
(The good news, kids, is that if Jesus takes these folks on Christmas Eve, we get all the presents!)
———- Forwarded message ———-
THE NIGHT JESUS VISITED – VERY SPECIAL
It was the night Jesus came
and all through the house,
not a person was praying,
not one in the house ….
The Bible was left
on the shelf without care,
for no one thought
Jesus would come there ….
The children were dressing
to crawl into bed,
not once ever kneeling
or bowing their head..
And Mom in the rocking chair
with babe on her lap,
was watching the Late Show
as I took a nap …..
When out of the east
there rose such a clatter,
I sprang to my feet
to see what was the matter …..
Away to the window
I flew like a flash,
tore open the shutters
and lifted the sash ……
When what to my wondering
eyes should appear,
but Angels proclaiming
that Jesus was here ……
The light of His face
made me cover my head…
was Jesus returning
just like He’d said …..
And though I possessed
worldly wisdom and wealth,
I cried when I saw Him
in spite of myself …..
In the Book of Life
which he held in his hand,
was written the name
of every saved man …..
He spoke not a word
as he searched for my name,
when He said “it’s not here”
My head hung in shame …..
The people whose names
had been written with love,
He gathered to take
to his Father above …..
With those who were ready
He rose without sound,
while all of the others
were left standing around …..
I fell to my knees
but it was too late,
I’d waited too long
and thus sealed my fate …..
I stood and I cried
as they rose out of sight,
Oh, if only I’d known
that this was the night ……
In the words of this poem
the meaning is clear
the coming of Jesus
is now drawing near …..
There’s only one life
and when comes the last call,
We’ll find out that the Bible
was true after all.
B – Basic
I – Instruction
B – Before
L – Leaving
E – Earth
Please send this to as many people as possible … JESUS LOVES YOU
December 19, 2007 at 11:16 pm
Woooo! that’s long. er. Sorry.
December 19, 2007 at 11:20 pm
Ugh. That’s a horrible bastardization of the Night Before Christmas.
December 19, 2007 at 11:58 pm
Hysterical, Terry. Is it possible people think Jesus is going to come to their house and search a book for a name? That’s some serious omnipotence there. I know, it’s only “symbolic” – the real story is that Jesus intends to suck 144,000 sheep into heaven and incinerate the rest of his creation. That’s much better.
B – Babbling
I – Idiots
B – Believe
L – Lying
E – Evangelists