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Over 600 brave Americans who were caught in the quagmire of Viet Nam were captured and held as POWs. In most cases, they also received at least some torture. Regardless of our view of that war, these brave people deserve respect and admiration for what they endured.
That select group includes two remarkable men, John McCain and Philip Butler, both accomplished individuals and proud American patriots, who know each other going back to their days together at the Naval Academy. John McCain went on to a life of politics and is now the presumptive Republican nominee for president of the United States. Philip Butler went on to complete his PhD at the University of California, San Diego, and is now a peace and justice activist with Veterans for Peace.
Dr. Butler has written a fascinating article, published on Military.com, which explains why he will not vote for his fellow POW for the presidency. It is not an article that damns McCain. On the contrary, in contains considerable praise. However, what the article does accomplish is to present a snapshot the real McCain, seen as more than just a war hero or politician, but a human being. Dr. Butler reaches the conclusion that, despite his positive qualities, McCain exhibits certain characteristics that make him unsuitable as the best choice for president of the United States.
Here are a few excerpts from the article:
Believe me when I say that back then I would never in a million or more years have dreamed that the crazy guy across the hall would someday be a Senator and candidate for President! John was a wild man. He was funny, with a quick wit and he was intelligent. But he was intent on breaking every USNA regulation in our 4 inch thick USNA Regulations book. And I believe he must have come as close to his goal as any midshipman who ever attended the Academy.
I could tell many other midshipman stories about John that year and he unbelievably managed to graduate though he spent the majority of his first class year on restriction for the stuff he did get caught doing. In fact he barely managed to graduate, standing 5th from the bottom of his 800 man graduating class. I and many others have speculated that the main reason he did graduate was because his father was an Admiral, and also his grandfather, both U.S. Naval Academy graduates.
I furthermore believe that having been a POW is no special qualification for being President of the United States. The two jobs are not the same, and POW experience is not, in my opinion, something I would look for in a presidential candidate.
Most of us who survived that experience are now in our late 60’s and 70’s. Sadly, we have died and are dying off at a greater rate than our non-POW contemporaries. We experienced injuries and malnutrition that are coming home to roost. So I believe John’s age (73) and survival expectation are not good for being elected to serve as our President for 4 or more years.
I can verify that John has an infamous reputation for being a hot head. He has a quick and explosive temper that many have experienced first hand. Folks, quite honestly that is not the finger I want next to that red button.
John is not a religious person, but he has taken every opportunity to ally himself with some really obnoxious and crazy fundamentalist ministers lately. I was also disappointed to see him cozy up to Bush because I know he hates that man. He disingenuously and famously put his arm around the guy, even after Bush had intensely disrespected him with lies and slander. So on these and many other instances, I don’t see that John is the “straight talk express” he markets himself to be.
Dr. Butler summarizes as follows:
In short, I think John Sidney McCain, III is a good man, but not someone I will vote for in the upcoming election to be our President of the United States.
You can view the article here.
73 Comments
June 12, 2008 at 11:55 am
Great post Gorn, thanks for putting it up.
June 12, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Wow. That’s some powerful stuff.
Thanks, Gorn.
June 12, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Let us never forget the part that John McCain took in the USS Forrestal fire in 1967. Another link
.
June 12, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Hey, you guys should check this site out.
http://www.johnmccain.com/ActionCenter/BlogInteract/BlogInteract.aspx
this is the site where McCain sends bloggers out to progressive sites to engage and infiltrate the moderate to middle left sites.
TP, Daily Kos, Crooks and Liars, are all listed as well as others.
I guess the idea is to get in there and post comments that make him look good or what have you.
You can actually get “points” for posting your comments that you use in these progressive blogs.
they have a blog site, so maybe you can take a look and see if you recognize anyone.
June 12, 2008 at 2:35 pm
As someone who is a near contemporary of John McCain and attended a competing Service Academy, the author and others seem to forget that the services were recruiting fighter pilots in those days and the kind of on the edge behavior of McCain was actually viewed with favor in that community. There are contrary views of John McCain among others who were POW with him. I have the privilege of working with one of them.
June 12, 2008 at 2:39 pm
johne37179 – must be one of McCain’s blog boys.
June 12, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Interesting post…Thank you Gorn for posting…Sad so many live’s were lost for one or two career hot head’s….Sadder still the 59,000 of our’s and perhap’s million’s of Viet Nam people that died..
Like now, it is all so very sad and point less….
Some will alway’s want to paint a rosey picture of past service, other’s there in person not so much..Then there is the voice of all those that lost their life….Silenced forever……Blessings
June 12, 2008 at 3:04 pm
johne37179, you may well be right that McCain’s characteristics are or were ideal for a Navy fighter pilot. That does not mean the same characteristics are necessarily desirable in a President. I, for one, would not put “on the edge behavior” at the top of my wish list.
June 12, 2008 at 3:10 pm
Gorn, since the troll say’s he know’s a guy that knew him instead of your clip about a man that was there and know’s him personaly I am inclined to believe your guy..Second hand is better than 3rd or further removed in my book…Now back to my book and Thank’s again for all the info…Blessings
June 12, 2008 at 3:19 pm
Happy reading, my dear witch.
I’m not ready to throw john under the bus as a troll based on his post. He makes a valid point about the context of McCain’s behavior at the Academy, even if that point isn’t relevant to the question of suitability for the WH. And he wasn’t disrespectful.
I tend to agree that the Academy behavior described in the article can be largely written off as a matter of “youthful maverick” behavior. What I find more disturbing are the other characteristics described, some of which we’ve all witnessed: bad temper, sucking up to the religious crazies, selling out to the Bush agenda, etc.
June 12, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Actually, the average Navy fighter pilot lost 1/3 of a plane during the Nam conflict (The one he went down in.). Johnny crashed 5 and disabled an aircraft carrier. According to a cousin of mine (a deck officer), McC was wisked away before he was either keel hauled or thrown off the stern.
June 12, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Your right Gorn, maybe he isn’t a troll or plant, just ill informed..
From a woman’s prospective mcnut’s is an opertunest, womanizing, ill tempered bad mouthing LITTLE MAN..I have divorced men like him for far less..LOL..
Walt, our country would of been better served if they had thrown him over board….Blessings all, back to the studies…
June 12, 2008 at 3:42 pm
I don’t know about all that ” proud American Patriot” and war hero stuff.
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_declassified_landing.htm
people can go to this link and read the transcripts of some of the interviews he gave the enemy while in captivity.
You can also read about what some Vietnam Vets think of the man that stood in the way of their efforts to get records released so they could see if their were more of their brothers still in Vietnam.
And, of course, how he dumped his wife when he got back, like Zooey or someone said.
That’s not really what I would call a “good man”.
June 12, 2008 at 3:45 pm
Gorn, thank you for that article. It was, in some places, heartbreaking for me to read.
This man gave up eight and a half years of his life. A prison sentence for being American. McCain gave up five and a half years. Both were tortured.
It is unfathomable to me that McCain could ever support this (Gitmo, Abu Ghraib) for any other human being…even if they are terrorists. That’s what trials are for. Good interrogators know that killing them with kindness returns more results than simply killing them.
Is he trying to get back at the atrocities he suffered by inflicting as much pain on others as were inflicted upon him?
How does one who lived it support it for others?
Age aside. Temper aside. Pandering aside. The ability to endorse torture and the jokes about nuclear war give insight into the mind of a man who has no value for human life. And that kind of person has no business being “leader of the free world.”
June 12, 2008 at 3:53 pm
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_hopper_video.htm
go watch an activist and father of a missing airman detail how McCain admitted giving classified info about air routes and target packages to the enemy 5 days after he was shot down.
5 days
June 12, 2008 at 3:56 pm
“there was an estimate that we lost 60% more men than we lost previously.” due to McCain’s capture and subsequent confirmed collaberation with the enemy.
June 12, 2008 at 4:29 pm
Interesting web site, willy. I wonder if he’ll publicly blow a gasket when confronted with some of these accusations as the campaign moves forward. Should be a spectacle!
Although some of the items identified on the site don’t seem like such bad things to me. For example:
I’m not sure what’s so awful about lifting an embargo on a country 20 years after a war, which should never have been fought, was already over.
June 12, 2008 at 4:44 pm
I’m not sure what’s so awful about lifting an embargo on a country 20 years after a war, which should never have been fought, was already over.
Not a thing, IMHO. What’s the point?
June 12, 2008 at 6:02 pm
Olbermann’s Special Comment was amazing. I think he was tearing up. I did.
Such sadness. Such madness. Where has my country gone? I don’t recognize it any longer.
June 12, 2008 at 6:30 pm
Thanks for reminding me, MizzJ. I’ll catch it on the repeat.
June 12, 2008 at 6:36 pm
The segment with Turley was (as usual) very elucidating as well.
June 12, 2008 at 6:40 pm
Z,
If you are driving to Idaho, turn off your PC! Ruining a perfectly good laptop would be sinful!
June 12, 2008 at 6:45 pm
It’s safe, Walt. I have it on cruise control.
Actually, we leave here for Chicago tomorrow, then after I put the parents on the airplane, it’s westward ho!!
June 12, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Check out the racist Obama monkey sock toy on TP.
Jeebus, this shit is going to be horrendous over the next few months.
June 12, 2008 at 6:59 pm
Z,
I was only worried about the laptop. Unskilled labor is all that is required to replace a human. Ask W!
June 12, 2008 at 7:02 pm
Thanks, Walt. I think…
June 12, 2008 at 7:42 pm
You have a real interesting take on McCain, there Gorn.
June 12, 2008 at 8:43 pm
Really? I’m not even sure what my take is. I just know I don’t want him elected. I already felt that way, and as information arises, there seem to be even more reasons.
June 13, 2008 at 5:00 am
McCain is a clone of George W Bush. There’s very little difference between their true character as a person. They both laugh at war and torture and they both are greedy, self-centered and disrespectful of others, with McCain being particularly cruel to women. They both graduated at the bottom of their class, have a bad temper and became politicians because of their relationship with wealthy people who financed their ambitions.
June 13, 2008 at 5:15 am
oh, just wondering aloud Gorn.
aside from this author saying McCain is a great guy, he just won’t vote for him, you have some flowery words for the man as well.
“two remarkable men, John McCain and Philip Butler, both accomplished individuals and proud American patriots”
Personally, I don’t think he is remarkable at all.
From what someone else here posted, he wrecked a bunch of planes and a ship…
…from what you said, he graduated at the bottom of a class of 500 (that’s pretty bad)…
… and we know how he treated his ex-wife when she got sick, and the language he uses with his current wife…
… and his politics came from being a “war hero” returning from Vietnam combined with his father’s influence…
… and he stood in the way of getting critical info from Vietnam that may have helped return several MIA-POWs from capture…
… not to mention signing like a bird to the enemy.
Doesn’t seem to fit, you know? maybe I am just too critical of the man.
June 13, 2008 at 5:24 am
Good morning, Willy.
It’s my opinion that we need to focus on the man McCain is now. Trashing his military career, legit or not, comes a bit too close to “swiftboating.”
I don’t want McCain to be a martyr to the R American anymore than I do Bush — and it would happen if liberals go after McCain’s military service.
Just my opinion.
June 13, 2008 at 5:49 am
by all means.
In that case I stand corrected: he’s “a remarkable man and a true American Patriot”.
yes, now I can see how that will help.
(psst. It isn’t “swiftboating” if it’s true)
June 13, 2008 at 5:55 am
I don’t consider a POW to be a hero. To me, a hero is someone that sacrifices their own safety to protect or save the life of someone else. Being captured by the enemy is not heroic. Torture, no matter who is doing it, is horrendous and barbaric. Surviving torture may be more luck than heroics.
June 13, 2008 at 6:01 am
Now, let me see if I got this right:
Using a slur he made in private to his wife reported by someone who wasn’t there, in an “unofficial” biography of McCain, that Stewert joked “may or may not be true”… that’s OK?
in fact you have several stories about it.
But me mentioning his blocking efforts by family members to get records from Vietnam about POWs still missing, all on official record in the US Congress, and testified to by real Americans, on the record…
…that’s off limits here?
What I said that you took exception to was a combination of what several OTHER critters wrote; about wrecking planes and graduating at the bottom of his class…
someone else put those here, I just quoted them…
but I need to be told not to talk about them… because you don’t want to seem like you are “swiftboating”?
Why didn’t you mention this to them? The ones who put them here in the first place?
June 13, 2008 at 6:10 am
ah, I got you… they’re not me.
I get the picture. I’ll take my “radical agenda” someplace else, ZZ.
you keep playing it safe down the middle, ok?
in Nov you’ll see what that gets us.
June 13, 2008 at 6:11 am
from what I have read, I am the only one here you remind what should and shouldn’t be talked about.
real progressive echo chamber you got here.
June 13, 2008 at 8:39 am
willy, I don’t think Zooey was directing that second sentence to you. That wasn’t how I perceived it but that was before I read your comments.
June 13, 2008 at 8:45 am
That’s just great, Willy. Thanks a lot.
You really are good at reading a bunch of shit into the things people write, aren’t you?
I guess it’s a bad thing for me (just me, Willy, not you) to try to have a little sensitivity to our Critters (and readers) who are veterans. It’s a bit of a balancing act between calling out McCain for his deficiencies, and having it appear that we’re slamming all veterans.
Maybe that’s just me. I come from a military family (as do you), I greeted POWs at the airport after the Vietnam war with my family — those who didn’t have family that could meet them in California. I’ve seen that “thousand yard stare.” I’ve been hugged so tight by these guys that I thought I would crack in half.
So you’ll pardon me if I don’t want to throw them, and all the other veterans, on the fire with McCain — even if it’s true.
Even though slamming McCain for all the true stuff we know about him doesn’t really slam all other veterans, people don’t take it that way. They read stuff into the things we write — like you do.
Pssst, I never told you that you couldn’t talk about anything, Willy. I expressed an opinion that is mine alone. I only control myself. As far as I can tell, you do as you please.
You’ll be here, or you’ll be gone. You’re in charge of that decision — I haven’t chased you off.
June 13, 2008 at 9:22 am
There goes willy with his “all the world is black and white” routine. As usual, two things can’t be true at the same time.
One cannot possibly have the temerity to show respect for the service of another person, if that service is less than perfect. One cannot show respect for someone who went through the horrors of being a POW, if he may have cracked at some point as his broken body was tortured. One cannot show respect for the political career of that person to become a longstanding Senator and then the presidential nominee of his party, if it is a party to which one is opposed or if one is in general disagreement with that person’s positions.
One cannot acknowledge the positive before itemizing the more important negative characteristics. With willy, one must be one way only: strictly negative from start to finish.
No, with willy, it’s all about “my way or the highway”. Don’t focus on the meat of an article, just spend time fretting over the way the context was set. Pick apart the respectful tone and ignore the content.
With willy, it’s all about doing battle. In his own way, he’s just like George Bush. Diplomacy is not in his vocabulary. He’ll even pick fights, seemingly daily, with people he ought to consider to be friends, or at least with whom he should share common ground. When they (repeatedly) offer him an olive branch, he spits on it with contempt. With him, there is no common ground unless you have complete and total agreement with all components of his world view. He longs to continuously remind others of how hard he works at his “research” and how superior it is to what they have done or how they think, despite the fact that he knows absolutely nothing about them other than the few words shared through the filtered and antiseptic medium of the internet.
Echo chamber? That’s what willy wants. If he doesn’t agree with something, he doesn’t merely post his point of view with respect, he sharpens his claws on everyone in his way. If they don’t then give in to his bullying, he pouts and acts the martyr. Like George Bush, you are either with him, or you are with the enemy.
Willy, nobody kicked you out as a critter. You just went off in a huff. Nobody’s asking you to not participate here and bring your opinions. Nobody else wants an echo chamber.
But I, for one (and yes, I speak only for myself and this is only my personal opinion and not backed by mountains of circular “research”), would appreciate it if you could just be a little bit less of a jackass. Otherwise the important points of the day end up getting lost behind pointless flame wars like this.
June 13, 2008 at 11:09 am
willy sez:
go watch an activist and father of a missing airman detail how McCain admitted giving classified info about air routes and target packages to the enemy 5 days after he was shot down.
I wouldn’t have held out five minutes. The man had several broken bones in his body and was tortured on top of that.
and willy sez:
“there was an estimate that we lost 60% more men than we lost previously.” due to McCain’s capture and subsequent confirmed collaberation with the enemy.
You know this can be read as “torture is working after all”.
Just for the record. I would have huge policy issues with John McCain. I definitely doubt that he is physically, emotionally and mentally capable of doing the job he is running for. And that is what I intend to stick to when criticizing him. There is enough there. That is what this article is about.
Nobody here in this blog has any personal experience like the one John McCain had while serving your country and we are damn lucky not to know what it really feels like being a POW in Vietnam.
I would never attack him for his reactions in this situation, never. It’s just not decent.
June 14, 2008 at 6:13 am
This man, as a representative of the people of this country, stood in the way of gathering information on the missing POW’s in Vietnam.
That’s not fiction, and to my knowledge there is now way that by me pointing this fact out am I doing a disservice to our soldiers.
And my father was career Navy, ZZ. So I know what those hugs are like as well.
June 14, 2008 at 6:22 am
There were many taken as POWs during that war. Many were tortured. Some collaberated, many did not.
By his own testimony, he was taken to the hospital after 5 days, in exchange for his info.
Now, I don’t know what he went through, but saying that it’s offlimits to talk about because we don’t know what it’s like being captured and tortured…
… makes about as much sense as saying; you can’t talk about a presidents corruption because you haven’t been one.
I simply posted a link and started a topic of discussion; you think it could be seen as insulting the troops? I don’t think so. I think it honors them. That site is run by vets and most of the articles and comments posted there are BY vets.
and some vet fathers who wanted to know what happened to their sons and were angry that McCain was standing in the way of finding out.
That doesn’t do a disservice to veterans like my father and uncles and brother, not by a long shot.
June 14, 2008 at 6:33 am
and again, Gorn goes off with a lengthy diatribe of condesending personal attacks against me after I simply question why he feels like calling McCain a “remarkable”" American Patiot”.
I showed McCain wasn’t “remarkable” nor a “patriot” by any stretch of the imagination, and immediately Gorn, again, launches into personal attacks.
He doesn’t show WHY he thinks McCain is either remarkable or a patriot, he just launches his personal insults.
then he accuses me of personal attacks.
June 14, 2008 at 6:41 am
It is the “deeper meaning” of your article that I disagree with Gorn.
McCain is NOT a great guy or a remarkable man.
He graduated bottom of his class, and ONLY graduated because of his father’s position…
he crashed planes (some posted)… crashed a boat (same person)…
… he rode his father’s coattails into the Senate, then protected his seat there by blocking the release of Vietnamese records about still missing POWs. All of that is on record and verified.
Not to mention what he did to his first wife and what he is doing now.
No, Gorn, he is not remarkable and he is not a patriot. He is a stumblebum silver-spooner who was born to privilege and who has no apparent definative “remarkable” character whatsoever.
Now I am sure that these comments will earn me so more personal attacks and slander, but let me just say that what I have said, in NO WAY insults troops or could be percieved as insulting the men and women of our armed services.
June 14, 2008 at 7:01 am
EV;
What I wrote and continue to write, strengthens the position you stated about McCain’s ability to run this country.
Now, if you are concerned with how my comments may be percieved, well that is your peragative.
But what you and others don’t seem to want to take into concideration here is that there were many POWs that did not tell information like McCain did. Many.
And there are many soldiers that are serving now that would like to think that they would not either. I don’t condemn him for it; it is just part of his background; a glimpse into his character, if you will.
Like the “c” word thing. That one, however, “may or maynot be true” (jon Stewart). But his recordings on behalf of the Vietnamese and his record while in office of blocking access to the POW records from Vietnam ARE true.
What you are saying is that this site shouldn’t discuss the TRUTH because of how it MIGHT be percieved?
So again people think I am “attacking” when I simply state the facts as they are reported by other vets and fathers of service men who are still looking for answers.
Is it more or less “decent” to ignore those veterans and their anguish toward McCain’s stonewalling?
June 14, 2008 at 7:10 am
(and you see? I didn’t attack EV personally, nor did I attack Gorn in the first place. I disagreed with their comments and I posted the reasons for it. and I stand by my original comments; McCain is neither a “remarkable man” nor is he a “Patriotic American”. Not when he says he doesn’t give a shit when our troops come home. (you see what I did there? I linked this CURRENT statement to McCain’s PAST blocking of the release of records to get the MIA-POWs home from Vietnam. A little glimpse into the past can show a great deal about how he will behave NOW.))
June 14, 2008 at 7:13 am
I have to agree with you willy about McCain’s character. I don’t think he has any and I think he exploits his POW experience to cover up what a bad guy he is and was. I think he is cut from the same swatch as W and has gotten away with everything wrong thing he’s done because he shouts POW, POW. He’s Rudy all over with POW instead of a noun, a verb and 9/11.
John Kerry got no sympathy from the GOP or should I say no respect for his service even though he was going against an AWOL perpetual loser. Progressives always try to play nice with these people and there’s no way to make these rethugs be civil. You have to beat them at their own game.
That’s just my opinion but so is the fact that the GOP voters won’t believe Bush and Cheney did anything wrong because the Democrats in Congress took impeachment of the table. And they know or believe, that if they’d done something wrong the Democrats would have called them on it. But they didn’t. We are so screwed.
June 14, 2008 at 7:52 am
Hi Shayne. Thanks.
You might be interested in this story on the front page of a little site called CounterPunch this morning.
http://www.counterpunch.org/valentine06132008.html
It’s a great read, comparing and contrasting the story of McCain’s POW experience in Vietnam, to that of the author’s father who was a POW during WWII.
You know, there are many stories and films and books written on the subject of the POW experience. Some classic literature, that I guess by the standards set here, wouldn’t be appropriate because someone could consider it offensive to veterans.
Hell Hogan’s Hero’s ran for how many years? And they dealt with the issue of collaberators in many different episodes without being labeled as indecent.
Maybe those classics and Hogan Heros and CounterPunch have a different editorial slant. Either way, it’s a great article that points out that McCain is neither a “remarkable man” nor an “American Patriot”.
I reccomend it for people who would agree with me.
June 14, 2008 at 8:04 am
and Zooey, and this is the last thing I will say on this subject, perhaps I was wrong about thinking you were singling me out. One other commenter seems to think so, and so maybe you were just stating your overall opinion on the subject. And if that is the case, then i appologise.
But this is why I thought that.
“Good morning, Willy.
It’s my opinion that we need to focus on the man McCain is now. Trashing his military career, legit or not, comes a bit too close to “swiftboating.”
Just like in the comment where you reply to my comments, you started off this comment, with a heading, like a letter, addressed to me.
“That’s just great, Willy. Thanks a lot.
You really are good at reading a bunch of shit into the things people write, aren’t you?”
So, when I read a heading that mentions me specificly, Like your comment above and EV’s comment as well, I figure the comment is directed at me.
So if I was mistaken in that assumption, again I am sorry. But that is why I made it.
Now, you say: “I guess it’s a bad thing for me (just me, Willy, not you) to try to have a little sensitivity to our Critters…”
well, ZZ of course not. But look back at what I said about this article. I simply disagreed with it and posted my reasons (apparently CounterPunch may agree with me). I never the poster personally.
Now Gorn has gone off in a diatribe of insults and personal attacks on me and my character, and there is nothing from you regarding sensitivity toward me?
This is what I am talking about ZZ. This is the double standard that I see.
June 14, 2008 at 8:27 am
from the CounterPunch article:
“This is the lesson of McCain’s experience as a POW: a true politician, a hollow man, his only allegiance is to power. The Vietnamese, like McCain’s campaign contributors today, protected and promoted him and in return, he danced to their tune.”
that is simply the point I have been trying to make.
June 14, 2008 at 10:09 am
EV:
Here is a man, John McCain, who’s war experience, by his own admission, consisted of flying at 30k feet and dropping fire bombs on villages. Women and children. McCain said that.
He was shot down into a lake, and by his own admission again, his life was saved by one of the villagers he had been bombing.
Again, by his own admission, he lasted 3 to 5 days before striking a deal with his captors to go to a hospital. In fact, they took him to the same hospital they took NVA Officers and he was attended to by Soviet doctors.
No other POW was ever treated in that way. This is by McCain’s own admission.
My point is this: he dropped fire on people, everyday people, from a safe distance. He didn’t drag himself thru mud or watch his buddy’s head blow up from sniper fire, or have all of his friends slaughtered right before his eyes.
He dropped fire bombs and napalm on civilians (by his own testimony) and then flew back to the base and drank.
He was in one-on-one contact with the enemy for 3 days before using his family’s military connections to buy himself better treatment from his captors (his statements).
Now you can say what you want about me being decent or not, but these are the facts. And considering the republicans are spending so much time pretending that our candidate is a “sympathiser” and “collaberator” for simply wanting to hold negociations with the President of Iran, you would think that brining up issues like the ones I am talking about would be the logical reaction.
Obama is not a sympathiser and McCain was according to his own statements and the statements of those who stayed at the Hanoi Hilton with him.
June 14, 2008 at 2:14 pm
willy, life is a good thing. Go get one.
June 14, 2008 at 2:39 pm
Gorn I expected nothing more from you than a cliched personal attack.
and once again you prove you are more than capable of fulfilling my expectations.
June 14, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Sometimes a cliche says all that really needs to be said. Buh bye.
June 14, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Willy,
My first sentence was simply a greeting. The rest is my opinion on the subject. Maybe in the future you could simply ask me?
I happen to agree with you about McCain’s character. I just don’t think that going “midevil on his ass” is the way to expose him.
The article Gorn linked to was an interesting way of exposing McCain’s deficiencies.
June 14, 2008 at 6:54 pm
ZZ did you read the article in my post?
June 14, 2008 at 6:56 pm
Not yet.
June 14, 2008 at 7:01 pm
You should. Not to tell you what to do, but, I think, it’s important to understand where this man is coming from and where he will lead us.
and like I suggest in the comments, we can’t let them decide what we talk about. In the end it will hurt our cause.
McCain is not an “American Patriot” and as it just so happens, this article is posted the very day you and I seem to have a disagreement.
If your opening statement was a greeting as you said, then like I have already said, I am sorry for jumping to that conclusion. But you see why I did? Right?
June 14, 2008 at 7:06 pm
No Willy, I don’t see why you jumped to conclusions. If you have a question about something I post, ask me what I meant — here or by email. I’ll tell you the truth.
I simply consolidated comments. I’m a little busy these days.
I’ll read the article this evening.
June 14, 2008 at 7:07 pm
And not to correct you, but if you could make said inquiry without sarcasm or confrontation, that would be peachy.
June 14, 2008 at 7:14 pm
“Sarcasm or confrontation”… what about the direct unsubstanciated personal attacks directed against me ZZ?
I am not being sarcastic? I said directly that calling McCain a “remarkable”"American Patriot” is wrong. He is neither.
and what came from that was personal attacks. Thats what happened, anyone can read it.
and I am not the only one who thinks so. read the article.
I thought you were addressing your “dress down” to me, based on your comment’s heading, you can’t see that? I appologised if I got that wrong.
and you are talking about my “sarcasm”? is it so hard to see my point?
June 14, 2008 at 7:23 pm
Willy, I’m strictly talking about YOUR possible inquiry to ME about a comment in which you think I am “correcting” you. Nothing more.
Your communication with me ONLY.
I’ve previously made known my feelings regarding personal attacks made by anyone on the Zoo. I’m not going to run around being the comments police when things get out of hand. Y’all know how I feel, so police yourselves.
I’ve said already that I agree with you about the McCain stuff. I see your point. Does that mean I must agree with everything across the board? Do you agree with me on everything, for all the exact same reasons? Come on…
June 14, 2008 at 7:30 pm
No ZZ, I just don’t expect to be singled out. You may not have meant it that way, and if you say you didn’t then I am sorry I took it that way. I take your word for it.
Listen, this is a great article. You should read it. it’s about shaping our discourse. They have been doing it for awhile.
June 14, 2008 at 7:34 pm
I did not mean it that way, Willy.
I accept your apology. Thank you.
June 14, 2008 at 7:53 pm
This is the post,
John McCain: War Hero or North Vietnam’s Go-To Collaborator?
and it can be found here,
http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2008/06/14/john-mccain-war-hero-or-north-vietnams-go-to-collaborator/
and as it just so happens, it was published on the front page of CounterPunch at the time we were talking about this.
June 14, 2008 at 7:55 pm
we can’t be afraid to talk about the truth. and we should never, and I mean never refer to McCain as a “hero” or an “American Patriot”. It’s not true, and it belittles the rest of our service men and women.
and that is all I have to say on the subject.
June 14, 2008 at 8:16 pm
Your article was picked up by CounterPunch? That’s cool.
June 14, 2008 at 8:30 pm
no. Douglas Vlentines article was published the sme day, as it so happens
June 14, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Hi Zooey, how far did you get tonight? Is your sister still alive?
June 14, 2008 at 8:33 pm
Thanks, Willy. I realized that after I started reading the post.
Shayne, I’m in Minnesota! My sister is still alive. I’m sure the prairie dogs are treating her well.
June 14, 2008 at 9:23 pm
You fed her to the prairie dogs! You are ruthless. Hey wait a minute, I don’t think they have prairie dogs in Minnesota.8O
June 14, 2008 at 9:25 pm
Well, they may have been wolves….or wolverines.
June 15, 2008 at 5:30 am
Well kids, I’m on the road again — lots of miles to go. See ya later!!