Sunday Roast: Love – What’s up with that?

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What is love?  Why do we want it?  Why do we need it?

According to the Wikipedia…

Love is any of a number of emotions related to a sense of strong affection and attachment. The word love can refer to a variety of different feelings, states, and attitudes, ranging from generic pleasure (“I loved that meal”) to intense interpersonal attraction (“I love my wife”).

So love can be anything from your favorite recliner, to the feeling that draws us together to continue the existence of the species, to passion, or to the warmth of companionship.  For some, love might be “for now,” for others “forever,” and the feeling attached may be equally intense.

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All of us seem to want love, and it seems deeply ingrained in us to seek it.  We do some pretty crazy things to try to get and keep love, but equally we often do things to guarantee we won’t have love in our lives.     Seriously, what is up with that?

It seems to me that it’s a matter of priorities and balance.  Sternberg developed the triangular theory of love, in which there are three components: Intimacy, Passion, and Commitment.

If both partners have the same amount of intimacy, passion, and commitment toward the other, that is a truly fortunate (and rare) couple.  The problem is that most people have wonky love triangles.  She might feel intense intimacy and commitment, while he feels intense passion and a lesser degree of commitment.  Oops, right?

But no matter the difficulties in finding “the one,” or a series of “ones,” we seem to want to keep trying to find love.  Why?

We are all social creatures, at some level.  If we don’t get love and personal contact as infants, we might grow into adults who can neither give nor receive love and caring.  Studies show adults without partners are not as healthy and don’t live as long as those with partners.  The cynics among us might say life with their partner only seems longer — as in life sentence.  Heh.

We live in a crowded world, with more means of communication than ever before — telephones, radio, television, internet, email, blogs, twitter, chat rooms, text messaging, instant messaging, etc — why aren’t our chances of finding love, the kind that lasts forever (or at least as long as possible), increased?

If you ask me — you are still reading this, aren’t you? — we have to curb our tendency to think of love as something that looks like an advertisement for diamonds, or ripped abs, or a romantic comedy, and dig down deep to get in touch with the action and feeling of love:

Love someone for exactly who they are; say and mean the words “I love you”; be able to put yourself in the shoes of your partner; love just for the sake of loving; understand love can be lost; and even so, never stop loving.

Lastly, why do we need love?  See all of the above.

This is our daily open thread, so feel free
to discuss anything on your mind.

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198 thoughts on “Sunday Roast: Love – What’s up with that?”

  1. I LOVE THIS!

    Seriously, I could spend quite some time here on this thread today reading and posting … Instead, I’ve got some fields to tend ~ Hopefully I can check in during a break … :)

    With Unconditional Positive Regard and Respect for You All ~ lass

  2. Have you ever actually felt cognitive dissonance?

    Look at Rachel Maddow’s senior picture here, and tell me you’re not feeling it. :D

  3. If you had showed me that picture, without telling me who she was, I’d have never recognized her.

  4. I can see Rachel in there, but I never would have gotten there on my own. Sheesh, with long blonde hair like that she could have gotten a job at FauxNews!

    World Cup final is on in a couple of hours. I’ve got the TiVo set up to record so I can run Ralphie home and do some grocery shopping and then pretend to watch in real time. By the half I should be caught up with the rest of the world.

    My interest in footie is brand-new and half-baked. I tried watching a MLS game last week and it put me to sleep. It may be due in part to the relatively awful camera coverage compared to the WC, with a zillion cameras on the field as well as the overheads.

  5. Love — I like Emily Dickinson’s “definition”:

    Love — thou art Veiled –
    A few — behold thee –
    Smile — and alter — and prattle — and die –
    Bliss — were an Oddity — without thee –
    Nicknamed by God –
    Eternity –

  6. Quick note to EV: I’m about to start a tape-delayed broadcast of the F1 race, so I don’t know the results yet! But I did watch Germany beat Uruguay yesterday! That was a pretty exciting game, with the scoring.

    The lights just went out, at the start!

  8. Excellent post, Zooey. It is interesting to look at the triangle and see which aspects of love I’ve experienced.

    Question: is love merely part of our biological drive to reproduce, and have the biological parents stick together long enough for the offspring to be self-sustaining?

    Or is it something more?

  9. More. Much, much more. Love is, at it’s heart, the dedication — the gift, if you will — of oneself to another, with complete unselfishness and asking nothing in return.

  11. I’ve long found that there are three words which are almost impossible to pin down with a simple definition:

    Love
    Truth
    Beauty

    I don’t feel bad, though. Not even the great poets have really done it. They get close, but no matter how they put it there’s always more to it, never less. Perhaps that’s the problem. Humans tend to see everything as finite, hence definable, and Love, Truth, and Beauty are never finite.

  12. Frugal,

    but, why? What purpose does it serve? Beyond assuring survival of the species, love seems to be superfluous.

    If we are shaped by Evolution, it would seem to me that that which is not necessary to the survival of the species would not evolve.

    If we are shaped by God, why fashion us in such a manner as to be forever vulnerable to heartache?

    • BnF, then love must be necessary for the survival of the species. IMHO, there are things that makes us greater than the sum of our parts, and I think they are frugal’s three words that defy definition — truth, beauty, and love. For starters.

  15. I think, BnF, that esoteric concepts such as Love, Truth, and Beauty are intellectual ‘ideas’ moreso than they ar ‘practical’ constructs. There’s a tendency to reduce them, to where Beauty becomes falsely equated with things beautiful, where Truth becomes merely the opposite of a bold-face lie, and where Love is equated with sex (usually) or — what’s that other word — agape? Something like that. My preference is to not limit those three words, to not encapsulate them but simply to let them run free. More fun that way!

  16. He is big, all bones and skin. He even lost his puppy hair last week and looked like a giant rat. And still I love him to pieces. And he thinks he’s a chihuahua and should be held and carried all the time. I’ll have to take new pictures.

    • I’d love to see the pics, Shayne! Isn’t it funny how big dogs want to be lap dogs, and little dogs want to tear your leg off? Mine is in-between, cuz she wants both. :D

  19. Yeah he thinks he’s tough, always messing with my old Jack Russell until the old guy decides he’s had enough and then the puppy wails like a stuck pig. Funny really. I’m kind of afraid to take him to he dog park until he’s bigger because he’s kind of delusional about his toughness.

  20. I hope he’s like your dog Zooey since she got a tough old girl like you to fall for her. ;)

    • Who are you calling “old,” Shayne? :lol:

      She is a great dog, except for the anti-social behavior around other dogs. You prolly ought to take your pup to the dog park — he’ll learn.

      • Ugh, I better get to the store before the good people get out of church. I even have a list and re-usable bags ready. Something’s gonna go wrong!

  21. House, nice to have such a visitor as that Flicker.
    (no sense wasting the old cat food – feed a new friend).

  23. Way to go Mark Webber!

    2ebb,

    I always pitch the dry cat food out the back door, when the cats won’t eat it. The robins and blackbirds usually get it, so I was a little surprised to see the flicker there. It is the most exotic bird I’ve seen in quite a while.

    I need some lunch before the match starts.

  24. House, I am regularly visited by a flicker lusting after the suet. He’s much larger than the suet feeder and ends up lying on his back in the air clinging to it. I love watching him approach because he’s the most cautious bird imaginable. Chickadees and finches, even hummingbirds, make him nervous and he won’t even land on the railing of the balcony until they’ve left. When he finally makes his move, he lands on the railing with a solid clunk, and then paces up and down casting a watchful eye all around. Sometimes he even flies up into the tree to start all over again. Given that he’s the biggest bird in the room by a huge amount, this is all pretty funny.

    • Whew, made it back. It’s already 85 degrees out there, and the weather site promises only 87 today. Who do they think they’re fooling?

  25. The Flicker is very cautious but sometimes defeats its own purpose of ‘not wanting to be seen’.
    During the winter one uses the nest box for shelter, but not before flying from the Redwood tree – to the Avocado tree – to the Privet hedge then into the box: all the while trilling its path!
    (the routine never varies, either: always the same sequence of trees before entering)

    I love avian life~!~

  26. The Bonobos seem to have a good idea:

    “The species is best characterized as female-centered and egalitarian and as one that substitutes sex for aggression…”

    [I'd not be one to use it with repugnant republicans - there'd have to be another species willing to do that]

  27. Uncertain if the Bonobo’s would stoop that low… after all they do have standards.

      • Gates is polling military members about the DADT policy, but one wonders what he’s really polling. Look at some of the questions:

        - Do you currently serve with a male or female Service member you believe to be homosexual?

        - In the unit where you had a leader you believed to be gay or lesbian, about how many other unit members also believed the leader to be gay or lesbian?…How would you rate that unit’s … a. Ability to work together? … b. Morale?…c. Performance?

        - If Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell is repealed and you are working with a Service member in your immediate unit who has said he or
        she is gay or lesbian, how, if at all, would it affect your immediate unit’s effectiveness at completing its mission. . .

        - If Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell is repealed, how, if at all, will it affect your willingness to recommend to a family member or close friend that he or she join the military?

        - Have you shared a room, berth or field tent with a Service member you believed to be homosexual?

        - Have you been assigned to share bath facilities with an open bay shower that is also used by a Service member you
        believed to be homosexual?

        - If Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell is repealed and a gay or lesbian Service member attended a military social function with a same-sex partner, which are you most likely to do?

        First, I don’t know why a poll of service members is necessary — right or wrong has little to do with opinion. Second, is this a poll or a witch hunt? Finally, it seems like Gates is trying harder to stir up trouble than anything thing else.

  28. Hat tip to commenter ljm (I believe) over on TP who provided a link to this very interesting article.

    http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/?page=1

    You know how we always say facts don’t matter to the trolls? Apparently they don’t matter to us, either. It is a natural human instinct to want to hang on to the things you already believe to be true, even if presented with irrefutable evidence that what you believe is not true. People will even become more entrenched and refuse to believe the evidence, and not just conservatives. Liberals do it, too.

    The article is on four pages, and links are provided to each page. This may even influence my next song parody. I wasn’t sure where I was going with it, but this offers more possibilities. ;)

    And here is his comment http://thinkprogress.org/2010/07/11/kyl-tax-cuts/#comment-6265078

  29. I’m sure that if Truman had circulated a questionnaire like this substituting Black with homosexual there would have been a lot of service members who would have had their say on the idea of desegregation back in the 50′s.

    Supposedly we learned that was discrimination back then. And again when the whole women in combat thing came up. I just have a real hard time understanding why there are so many people who can’t see this is blatant discrimination.

  30. Surveys only seem to serve one purpose: skew the questions so you get your bias then spew the results as something ‘important’ and govern from.

    What difference does it make if you ‘find out’ the person you’ve BEEN serving with is gay? Does not change the performance of doing ones duty to ‘gawd’ and country does it? NO. Their record will speak for itself – without having to know ones sexual preferences or orientation!

  31. Zooey: I don’t know why a poll of service members is necessary — right or wrong has little to do with opinion.

    Somewhere after the end of the Second World War, a similar survey would have substituted, for ‘gay and lesbian’, the word ‘colored.’ Made me cringe then, I cringe today as well when I read that sort of shit. Why do so many in this country have so much difficulty with the concepts of freedom and equality regardless of … well, of anything? Doesn’t our national mythology say we’re better than that?

    • OMG, I’m all tingly…

      Long after his death, Samuel Langhorn Clemens, who wrote under the pen name “Mark Twain,” is about to reveal all in his never-before published autobiography. The author and inventor of such classic American characters as Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn, felt that some of the things he wanted to say were too controversial to be revealed in his lifetime and stipulated that they not be published until one hundred years after his death. That was in 1910 and now that 2010 has arrived, the guardian of the autobiography, the University of California Berkeley’s Bancroft Library is set to publish it in it’s entirety.

  33. Wayne, that’s an interesting article. The conclusions aren’t surprising. Americans in particular are trained from an early age to accept authority. It was neat that the ‘intellectual types’ got 90% of their information right. Too bad they didn’t add the same information for the nonintellectual types.

    I see it as getting worse because we no longer have any reliable sources for facts. The media is a joke, the 4th Estate has become real estate for the money crowd. The Internet helps but there is still no penalty for making shit up and feeding it to the public.

  34. oh yeah, Zooey. That book I will buy in hard cover as soon as it hits the stands. Clemens was the most astute satirist to ever take up a pen, bar none.

  36. Wayne, you went to TP? Thanks for taking one for the team! ;)

    I loves me this quote from Kyl:

    “But you should never have to offset cost of a deliberate decision to reduce tax rates on Americans.”

    Geegollywhizikers, The Govmint could just stop taxin’ alltogether and keep them benefits and expenditures comin’ and comin’ and comin’.

    An’ we wouldn’ need to worry about no deficit, ‘cuz we’re not payin’ fer nuthin’! Heck, I bet the Govmint could even stop borrowin’ money from China. All the Govmint’s gotta do is print all the money it needs. In fact, the Govmint could make up a Gazillion Dollar Bill, maybe put Bush’s face on it, and send it to China to pay off what we owe!

    It’s PERFICT! We don’t pay no taxes, the Govmint prints all the money it needs, so we get more Govmint services, not less! I love’s me this plan!

  37. Zooey,

    I believe the article to which I linked could explain what is in your video about “Intelligent” Design. The evidence against I.D. is much stronger than they think. There are WAY too many unintelligently designed things out there on the planet.

    And they obviously have not, as you indicated, taken into account the fact that just because they can’t explain something any other way, that the only possible explanation remaining is I.D. If your theory is that an Intelligent Designer exists and designed the Universe, that theory cannot be disproven. Therefore, it is not a valid hypothesis to test. Therefore, any argument that it is correct must be false!

  38. Wayne, from the article you linked:

    “A 2006 study by Charles Taber and Milton Lodge at Stony Brook University showed that politically sophisticated thinkers were even less open to new information than less sophisticated types. These people may be factually right about 90 percent of things, but their confidence makes it nearly impossible to correct the 10 percent on which they’re totally wrong.”

    I guess I have to look in the mirror… NOT!
    :lol:

  39. BnF,

    I did not log into TP. I merely scanned the comments and just happened to catch that one. I right-clicked on the time stamp (which is visible to people not logged in) and pasted it into my comment. But no one at TP would know I was there. :)

    Well, they might know that someone in my zip code visited the site, but I doubt they could know it was me personally. Unless, of course, they read my comment in this blog. Then the cat would be out of the proverbial bag. :)

  40. There is irrefutable proof against both Intelligent Design and Evolution:

    George Bush

  41. Intelligent design. How many arguments/debates have I had with supporters I couldn’t count.

    I usually left off with something like, “Before there can be design there must be a designer. Show me hard core PROOF that a designer exists and then we can talk.” That usually earned a harumph, sometimes a silly comeback, but never anything with a hint of substance. No surprise there.

    Then I would quote what I liked to bill as my own first law of thermodynamics: “Believe in something strongly enough and it will appear to be true.”

    By then they didn’t like me anymore. Oh well. Whatcha gonna do, you know?

  42. BnF,

    Given proof, and not mere strong assertion by the other guy, I am willing to accept that my beliefs are wrong. I will also change my opi9nions based on that new information. One example was my support for the war in Afghanistan. Initially I favored going in there, but after learning more details about what was actually going on, I changed my mind and decided that a full military invasion was unnecessary from the beginning.

  43. Well, as both the article I linked to and Zooey’s video shows, the problem with debating Intelligent Design is that both sides are not operating from the same reality base.

    For me (a person against I.D.), I feel as though the person I am debating will not accept even the possibility that there is no God. And since, in their humble opinion, there is a God, why would He NOT intelligently design mankind? I forget the fancy Latin, but it is circular reasoning. Their premise becomes the thing they intend to prove.

    • Like I’ve heard many times from family members: “You just have to open your mind.”

      They would be surprised that I’ve given far more thought and consideration to the God issue than they have.

  44. God is Perfect, therefore God exists, because it would be an imperfection to not exist.

  45. BnF: God is Perfect, therefore God exists, because it would be an imperfection to not exist.

    Republicans are imperfect (boy, are they ever!) and they exist. Is such gross imperfection proof, then, that god doesn’t exist? Hmmm. I might toss that one into the room at some appropriate time, then break for lunch or dinner, come back and do an entrails count.

  46. One of my favorite cutesy signs is “An oversight on your part does not necessarily constitute and emergency on mine.”

    Same with God and ID. Just a short century ago trained physicians were scoffing at bacteria. I’m thinking that whatever designed and runs the universe is not going to get too excited because people can’t ‘see’ it yet. It has more important things to deal with than ego straining idiot children.

  47. Zooey: Like I’ve heard many times from family members: “You just have to open your mind.”

    I get that all the time too. My response is that they, too, should open THEIR mind(s), take a look around and explore other possibilities. Never buys me much, but I always feel better.

  48. Like I’ve heard many times from family members: “You just have to open your mind.”

    To the proverbial wonders of 2,000 year old mythology! Those people have to buy machines to open a jar of pickles.

  51. “God is Perfect, therefore God exists, because it would be an imperfection to not exist.”

    BnF,

    Wouldn’t that be an example of, what our good friend Zooey calls in public, circulus in probando?

  53. The original sin is an allegory based on Pandora’s box. In both cases a woman is blamed! Both are intended to illustrate why humankind suffers from a god’s (lower case because I am referring to two classes of gods) ravages.

    Noah’s God broke his promise when he said that he would no longer bring suffering and sacrifice onto mankind.

  57. hooda: Hmmm, ok, frugal. Maybe we can take turns being the evil twin?

    The only problem I can see with the concept is arranging schedules.

  60. Walt: Noah’s God broke his promise when he said that he would no longer bring suffering and sacrifice onto mankind.

    I have two special problems with that whole Noah’s Ark tale. First, why did God create the mosquito in the first place, and second, what kind of stupid shit would have taken a breeding pair on the boat to save the species?

    That was one of the first bible-based questions I asked my sainted mother when I was a kid. She didn’t have an answer [swat!] Later I asked my dad, a genuine non-theist. He explained that whoever wrote the bible was probably smoking something.

    Pop was right, I later concluded. As usual.

  61. And everyone knows mosquitoes spread West Nile Virus. Noah missed a great chance to save the world from suffering from that. Instead, he brought it with him. :)

  62. frugal, the one that got me was if Noah only took his family on the Ark, how did they repopulate the world? Same with Adam and Eve. Who was porking whom to make new generations?

  65. hooda,

    The question of where Cain and Abel’s wives came from has always puzzled me. I have never heard a satisfactory answer to that. I have heard, “What’s that?” and when I turned to look, I heard footsteps running away. But I have never heard a satisfactory answer to that particular question.

    Advice to Religion starters: If you want people to believe something, it helps to make it believable.

  66. Another question is, how did Noah get the New World species over to Israel? Is FedEx that old?

    Just how does one ship a pair of grizzlies?

  68. Zooey,

    It would be funny (on so many levels) if they actually found Noah’s Ark, and the evidence left behind proved that dinosaurs ate everyone on board. :)

  70. “The lion shall lie down with the lamb, but the lamb won’t get much sleep.” – Woody Allen

    Isn’t that illegal in most states? Florida would consider it a hot date.

  72. hooda, two or three decades ago I wrote a poem titled ‘The Godman and the Skeptic’ which is, basically, a lighthearted argument between the two. Here’s the first part that covers the Adam and Eve stuff (it’s not as long as it looks):

    A godman and a skeptic met
    To promulgate their views,
    With godman’s premise, Genesis,
    And skeptic’s, more the muse.

    “God made the heavens and the Earth,”
    The passioned godman says,
    “And, furthermore, He did all this,
    In only seven days.”

    “But whence came God?” the skeptic asked,
    With some temerity,
    The godman said, “Don’t question that,
    For such is blasphemy! ”

    The skeptic glowered for a time,
    Then asked, “How old’ s the Earth?”
    “Six thousand years,” the godman said,
    “Including day of birth.

    “With firmaments united, then,
    The Earth was paradise,
    Where beasts and fields, and finally men,
    Enjoyed all without vice.

    “And God made Adam first, then Eve,
    Who were, as you shall see,
    Progenitors of all mankind,
    Kin of humanity.

    “For from their loins came many sons,
    Who married, then produced,
    Our father’s father’s ancestors,
    As, biblically, deduced.

    “Thus, all the Earth is born of God,
    And man’s the child of Eve,
    So, lie thee down in prostrate form
    And hail the Lord! Believe!”

    Then godman smiled, smug, and secure
    His theses were correct,
    For Genesis came straight from God,
    In veritas, direct.

    “Oh, I believe,” the skeptic said,
    “Though not the way you think,
    From what I’ve heard, the Universe
    Arrived in just a wink.

    “A coalescing, then a flash,
    And galaxies were cleaved
    From ether, dust, and energy,
    If science be believed.

    “Five billion years, or ten, or twelve
    Had passed, when life arrived,
    And finally men, though not like us,
    From lower forms derived.

    “And, furthermore, a question, sir,
    About the sons of Eve,
    Whence came the daughters, for her sons,
    Mankind, therefrom, conceived?”

    The godman cringed and raised his hand
    Toward heaven, in disgust,
    “If those are your beliefs, my friend,
    You’ll burn in hell, please trust.

    “For God, I know, has no rapport
    With those who pray to see
    The wisdom He withholds from men
    For all eternity.”

    (more banter follows)

  73. All things considered, we are lucky Christianity is based in the Middle East. It could just as easily been Little Rock. Or Louisville. Those southern states have the same idea about breeding.

  75. Might as well post the rest of it … again, not as long as it looks.

    “Your last remark makes little sense,”
    Said skeptic, feigning dread,
    “If you are asking we believe
    God deems our brains be dead.

    “For, if somewhere in endless space
    A Creator exists
    Who gave us minds to seek out truth,
    Then why should we resist?”

    The godman’s face showed beads of sweat,
    He offered no reply,
    He simply stared toward heaven’ s void
    As wispy clouds rolled by.

    May heathen burn, the godman prayed,
    They’re evil, stubborn men,
    And Lord, as why you sent them here?
    Well, that’s beyond my ken.

    Perhaps to try me, for a time,
    Before I’m laid to rest?
    Convert some souls to heaven’s song?
    Yes, likely that’s my test.

    But sure it is now’s not the time
    To use the Holy See
    As evidence, Your true intent,
    Thy Word’s inerrancy.

    Then godman turned toward skeptic, sad,
    This man, his nemesis,
    Would not accept such grand design,
    God’ s apotheosis.

    “We’ll meet again, my wayward friend,
    By then, perhaps, you’ll learn,
    That only through the Word of God,
    In hell’s fire, you won’t burn.”

    “I doubt it, sir,” the skeptic said,
    “For you’ve confirmed my choice,
    That words beyond the biblical
    Can speak with reasoned voice.

    “And, too, you see, I have no need
    To live in metaphor,
    I’d rather seek, expand my mind,
    Maintain an open door.

    “To blindly mimic premises
    Is not what God has deemed;
    It seems more likely He mandates
    That light, from dark, be gleaned,

    “And so, my friend, while I suggest
    That your beliefs you keep,
    Recall God sees us all as lambs,
    Though not, I think, as sheep.”

    Then skeptic turned and walked away,
    Face bent as if to smile,
    Safe Genesis was put to bed,
    If but for just awhile.

    Amen.

  76. Actually, Noah took his sons and their wives along for the ride, as well as his wife. At least they would have started with a breeding population (Inbred, of course). All of Eves surviving sons had to go through a rib extraction in order get their spouses. All that inbreeding resulted in Republican Crackers. The rest of us came from outside the Mediterranean and/or the fertile triangle.

  78. Walt,

    Is that where Cain and Abel’s wives came from? They came from the men’s ribs, too, like their mother-in-law? Or would she still be considered their mother, too? Or grandmother?

  79. Wayne sez, “(And I had my clothes on the whole time. )”
    Zooey sez, “I’ll wait for confirmation from Jane on that… ”

    The only times I’ve seen Wayne today, he has had his clothes on. I have not, however, kept my eye on him every minute. ;-)

  80. I was taught in Catholic grammar school that God punished Eve for eating the apple by making her and every woman after her menstruate, and by making everything to do with childbirth painful.

    What a benevolent god! No wonder some men worship him!

  83. All right, a silly question. If one were to accept we are all descended from Adam and Eve, why do we have so many ethnic groups in the world?

    And if you accept they came from the ME, where did white people come from? Was Adam part white, black and Polynesian? And Eve was part Amerind, Hispanic and Asian? If this Gahd fella started with two people, where did all the other types come from?

  84. Jane: What a benevolent god! No wonder some men worship him!

    A woman told me once that the stuff you mentioned served as absolute proof that god was NOT a woman! Made sense to me.

  85. hooda: All right, a silly question. If one were to accept we are all descended from Adam and Eve, why do we have so many ethnic groups in the world

    “There are some things we’re just not meant to know.”

  88. The Mormon church teaches that black folks are descendants of Ham (who supposedly had some connection to Noah, have no idea what it was). In fact, until the mid- to late-sixties, blacks were not allowed to become bishops in the Mormon church. Then one day The Prophet received word from god that it was now ok for blacks (males only, of course) to become bishops. It was a couple of years later that BYU in Provo started having black players on their football team and they became a lot more competitive.

    The lord works in strange ways.

  91. It is amazing how God changes his mind as it becomes beneficial to the various religious organizations. He used to think the earth was flat. Strange seeing as how he made it. You would think he would have known that before the 16th century.

    I wonder if he has an opinion on the Gulf?

    • I know, Hooda. I’ve been whipping myself with a chain for 5 minutes to make up for it. I like to make God smile.

  93. If one were to accept we are all descended from Adam and Eve, why do we have so many ethnic groups in the world?

    Then we are all related. Would it still be considered in-breeding given the earth is only 6,000 years old?

  94. I wonder if he has an opinion on the Gulf?

    He may not, but I do.

    I know, I’m such a blog whore. Which is pretty amazing considering how emotionally insecure I am in real life. ;)

  95. “Then we are all related. Would it still be considered in-breeding given the earth is only 6,000 years old?”

    Not sure. Is that beyond the 6 steps of relation?

  97. Hi y’all. Just thought you’d want to know that Ham was supposedly cursed because he saw drunken Noah lying around naked.

    • Why would Ham be cursed for seeing a naked and drunk Noah? Shouldn’t Noah be cursed for being naughty?

  98. self-flagellation – wasn’t aware Z was a Catholic.

    “Some members of strict monastic orders, and some members of the lay organization Opus Dei[9], practice mild self-flagellation using an instrument called a “discipline”, a cattail whip usually made of knotted cords, which is flung over the shoulders repeatedly during private prayer.”

  100. Zooey, ya got me. The only parts of the Bible I take as gospel are the Ten Commandments and the words of Jesus. There’re all kind of strange stories in there. And Lordy, read Song of Soloman for an ancient hot time.

    • And Lordy, read Song of Soloman for an ancient hot time.

      Ah yes, I wonder how many bibles just happen to naturally fall open at that spot? ;)

  102. hooda, if Noah worked for Halliburton the ark would have sunk on its test cruise.

  103. Outstanding, since no one has found the ark, who says it didn’t? A boat that could contain two of every species? Sounds like a scam to me.

  104. “The lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. He maketh me lie down in green pastures…
    Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me…

    Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
    all the days of my life…”

    ok, that’s a bit out of context – but isn’t it saying that fornication is a good thing – especially in a field.
    At least one partner (two if you swing that way) would have the rod and staff…

  106. Hi y’all. Just thought you’d want to know that Ham was supposedly cursed because he saw drunken Noah lying around naked.

    The rape and/or castration (though some Christians have argued that Ham screwed his mother) actually had a bit more to do with the whole curse thing.

  107. Actually, if memory serves, I thought the Mormons had the whole “black folks would become white when Space Jesus showed back up” thing going on.

  108. glamourdammerung, you are not mistaken:

    the Mormon Church had taught that ALL blacks were cursed. Hence, a black Mormon male could not hold the highly regarded LDS Priesthood1 because of his dark skin.

    The odd/strange/funny thing:

    there are some sects of christianity that believe LDS-Mormons are from the ‘dark side’ and not truly a christian religion.
    Imagine: one fantasy world questioning another fantasy world.

  109. Imagine: one fantasy world questioning another fantasy world.

    Get some “Star Wars” and “Star Trek” fans together.

  110. “Get some “Star Wars” and “Star Trek” fans together.”

    Am I incorrect in thinking that those folks are aware they are speaking of ‘fantasy worlds’,
    whereas
    ‘the religious’ folk truly believe there is a ‘god’ up there
    doing all this impossible/magical things in this world.

  111. The really funny thing is that all the hardcore skinhead types I ever met all were really big “Star Trek” fans. Apparently, there is a similar theme with that and child molesters.

  112. Do it in the woods.

    (I was reading 2ebbandflows comment, not yours glamourdammerung…) :)

  113. Raven, I just thought you were just mentioning a preference and/or fetish.

  116. Raven, you say the nicest things!

    And

    That photo – be still my beating heart.

    Thanks for posting that gorgeous creature!

  117. This was a very large male tarantula, out in broad daylight, taking a huge chance crossing a busy street….
    looking for love no doubt…

  118. Raven, don’t be so formal – ebb is just fine – and much shorter to type.

    That truly is an amazing photo – thanks for helping it across the road. (that’s a hint for Zooey to either click or not to click – that is the question)

    Be safe on your next foray into those woods!

  119. Thanks ebb, I’m soaking at the hot springs, limbering up before reporting in to work in the morning.
    A few nice thundershowers rolled through on the way down, cooled things off and brought a sweet smell to the desert.
    Weather looks good for the next week or so, afternoon showers is all, should be a good hike.
    Later…

  121. “…the southwest, no mosquitoes….”

    No they are all in Alaska.

    “Alaska’s mosquito population is the stuff of legend. There are 35 species of mosquitos in Alaska.”

    “Mosquitos in Northern Alaska:
    Mosquitos are more than a nuisance in the summer in the north country; they are a genuine problem. Be vigilant. Keep your windows rolled up, enter and exit the vehicle quickly and close the doors, or dozens of the little devils will enter in a minute.”

    • Excellent timing, zxbe. I just got here myself. I’m glad you enjoyed the museum. Do the pictures do it justice?

  124. My mother got her teaching degree in Winona circa 1925 at what is today (or was recently) Winona State. Nice town. Great spot for fall colors, too. And apples.

  126. How does one post a youtube video? If my question is too amateur, is there a FAQ you can point me to?

  130. This brings to mind a fundamental question – do male octopi (nonopi?) have nine extensions?

  131. Thanks for the help Zooey. I’m off to bed, because spending one more day in the pig barn is also a form of love.

  133. Late to the game today. Speaking of games, congrats to Spain!

    On love…I agree, love, truth and beauty are mysteries that each must decipher on their own. I was gratified to see that near as I can tell, I am in the middle of that triangle. :-)

    Sorry I missed out on all the Noah/religious talk today, as it was quite interesting. It reminds me of the essay on ‘The Other People’, which does address where Cain found his wife:

    The Other People

  135. hoodathunk
    July 11, 2010 at 2:54 pm
    All right, a silly question. If one were to accept we are all descended from Adam and Eve, why do we have so many ethnic groups in the world?

    And if you accept they came from the ME, where did white people come from? Was Adam part white, black and Polynesian? And Eve was part Amerind, Hispanic and Asian? If this Gahd fella started with two people, where did all the other types come from?

    Speak of the devil…you’d think that the racist trolls would be more accepting of their brethren…looks like they put no value into the Bible, haha…

  136. Thanks for that link pawz.

    Nature is so damn fascinating and cephalopods don’t seem to suffer ED!

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