The Watering Hole: Tuesday May 3, As opposed to…

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There is this one President who took out a criminal, who had nothing to do with 9/11 by reducing a country to ruins, killing hundreds of thousands of civilians in the process and losing the lives of 4’770 military personnel.

As opposed to the President who took out the criminal, who was actually responsible for 9/11, killing the criminal in the process.

What do you think?

This is our open thread. Give us your thoughts on this and whatever else is on your mind.

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136 thoughts on “The Watering Hole: Tuesday May 3, As opposed to…”

  1. Hello EV.

    It still boggles my mind that Bush/Cheney/Yoo et all have never been brought up on charges. And then let due process run its course.

    In terms of taking out Bin Laden, I think it was the best outcome, given all the circumstances.

  3. “who was actually responsible for 9/11″

    If it were up to me, I would change this to read:

    “who was allegedly responsible for 9/11″

    After all, there was no criminal investigation, much less a trial to determine guilt.

    But you point of the comparative competence and efficiency ot the two American Presidents is very well taken.

  4. As for Chimpy and his Organ Grinder, well their failure at Tora Bora stands in stark contrast now to Obama’s success.

    At a time when US forces would willingly put themselves in harm’s way to get OBL in 2001, Chimpy refused to commit them (because the Iraq buildup was starting) and OBL escaped. Even though he knew he was ordering people into danger and could have simply bombed, Obama trusted the courage and the skill of the soldiers 10 years later.

    Which president needs the larger codpiece?

  5. And excuse the testosterone, I think Hillary would have done the same thing as Obama.

  6. Great link Turtle… here’s the key statement:

    “Finally, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed himself admitted that he knew the courier. Held at Guantanmo Bay, he had been waterboarded 183 times without identifiying Ahmed. It was only later under conventional interrogation techniques that he admitted he knew him – though he still did not surrender a full name or where the courier could be found.

  7. Yes, but this is where the argument will take place. The claims will be made that ‘harsh interrogation’ yielded the key and that Bushco had the stones and no one else did.

    Also, we now have a very interesting explanation for why no prosecutions for torture have been pursued by Obama. Not that I think he should not have used the intelligence if it was tortured out – it was there, it would have been irresponsible not to verify and pursue it.

    The end and the means…. even this event is shaded in grey.

  9. Changing subjects…

    My private health insurance company just sent me an e-mail telling me I could win a trip to New York. I have to submit ideas to their “health challenge” and some lucky winner will get an all-expense-paid trip to New York. It’s being co-sponsored by a national women’s magazine.

    My question is, why on earth is my health insurance company getting in the contest business? Do they have too much money to spend? Are they just bored?

    This is a great example of the waste in our health care system. Premium dollars should be used for providing care, and minimal administrative costs. CEO Bonuses, record company profits, silly contests, have nothing to do with providing health care.

  10. Christopher Hitchens weighs in on the terrorist’s death:

    “It seems thinkable that he truly believed his own mad propaganda, often adumbrated on tapes and videos, especially after the American scuttle from Somalia. The West, he maintained, was rotten with corruption and run by cabals of Jews and homosexuals. It had no will to resist. It had become feminized and cowardly. One devastating psychological blow and the rest of the edifice would gradually follow the Twin Towers in a shower of dust.

    Well, he and his fellow psychopaths did succeed in killing thousands in North America and Western Europe, but in the past few years, their main military triumphs have been against such targets as Afghan schoolgirls, Shiite Muslim civilians, and defenseless synagogues in Tunisia and Turkey. Has there ever been a more contemptible leader from behind, or a commander who authorized more blanket death sentences on bystanders?”

    I’m really going to miss Hitchens’ insights and opinions.

  11. Think killing Osama martyred him? It’s a damn good thing that we killed bin Laden. What would we have done if he was captured alive? Stick him in Guantanamo? Torture him? The Republicans would be calling for it. Put him on trial? Like that would happen. We can’t try little pissant terrorists in court, no way we could try Osama. Keep him jailed without trial for the rest of his life? Most likely. Lucky we killed him, indeed.

  12. Bad, I agree. The circus that would have followed had we captured him alive would have finished tearing this country apart. And Bin Laden would be laughing the entire time.

  14. That’s more of the ‘grey’ here Bad, the dude wasn’t ‘coming quietly’ no matter what. Bin Laden was as clear a case as you get, but how do we know who is a terrorist?

    Without the Anglo-Saxon system of justice which has worked more or less for almost 800 years, do you just throw it our the window because of this thing called a ‘terrorist’?

  17. Saw this on Twitter…

    Look, I’ll give President Bush credit where it’s due. That guy had a totally brush-free ranch from 2001 to 2010.

    • From the TP ThinkFast:

      Supporters of President Bush “are irked that the White House isn’t doing more to share the glory” of killing Osama bin Laden, Politico reports. Numerous top Bush officials are making the case publicly that Bush policies played a key role, “and dozens of statements Monday from Republican officeholders mentioned Bush’s role after 9/11.”

      Fuck that shit.

      I don’t know where he is. I really just don’t spend that much time on him, to be honest with you.

      Chimpy gave up. Chimpy didn’t care. Chimpy is not invited to this party.

  20. Bin Laden would have stood trial if taken alive, and that was my point. That would be the last thing we would want which is why killing him was the correct mission.

    Bin Laden cost this country thousands of lives and trillions of dollars. He needed to be ended.

  21. I don’t see why it should be the last thing you would want. My link puts forward a solid argument why it should have been.

    Bin Laden cost this country thousands of lives and trillions of dollars. He needed to be ended.

    So did Hitler and his crowd. The Nazis were sent to Nuremberg.

  22. I wouldn’t trust the 2011 media to cover a Bin Laden trial. Too many outlets have their agenda to keep and the 24/7 news cycle would make a mockery of the process.

    • Cats, only Obama could or would get Osama — since the repiggies (especially Bush) weren’t even looking for him. They like their boogey men under the bed…or living in a mansion. ;) That sounds like a great bumpersticker!!

      It is uncharacteristic for me, but I’m glad Osama is dead. He won’t be grinning like Ted Bundy through his trials — which would take YEARS — and he won’t be as much of a rallying point for his sick followers. The repiggies would make an Osama trial into a trial of the Muslim faith, and that would bring millions to bin Laden’s side.

  24. As TPM put it:

    “…Bush, {Bush apologists} argue, played a big part as well, akin to the husband who loosens the lid to a Mason jar only to watch his wife open it effortlessly.”

  25. To recap, Nineleven was Clinton’s fault, but happened on Bush’s watch, and the Nineleven mastermind Osama who was killed during Obama’s watch, should be credited to Bush.

    Has Bush claimed credit for averting a worldwide depression, saving the American auto industry, putting two women on the SCOTUS…?

    • badmoodman, he just hasn’t thought of it yet.

      I’m sure he’s just relieved not to have to keep a job anymore. I’m relieved about that, too.

  26. The order was to take OBL alive if it could be done safely but apparently he resisted. The order was never to bring him in dead only.

  27. I’m glad he’s dead as well. Between the endless wrangling over what to do with him that would have ensued and the dangerous nuts who would have been trying to either free him or kill him, the finality of his death is a better choice.

  28. Nuremberg was big,
    They were each given a trial…
    Can’t have it both ways

  29. The wingnutz are such idiots. If the president wanted to put out false info saying he got OBL why wouldn’t he wait until right before the 2012 election?

  30. Then if they release the photos the wingnutz will say it doesn’t look like him, he never had a hole in his face before.

  31. No matter what is released there will be some who will claim it’s a fake.

  32. The order was to take OBL alive if it could be done safely but apparently he resisted. The order was never to bring him in dead only.

    Except, at least the way I heard it, no one was under any illusion that bin Laden was coming peacefully. And without killing him, there was the possible scenario of the Pakistani military (coming from their elite school a short distance away) might demand to take bin Laden as their prisoner. Wouldn’t that have been just spiffy.

    One of NPR’s more annoying correspondents was in town interviewing the locals, asking them if they thought it was puzzling that the military didn’t know Osama was in that compound for years. She eventually (and rudely) worked out that people didn’t answer questions like that about the Pakistani military.

  33. No matter what is released there will be some who will claim it’s a fake.

    Golly, I hope the lighting and shadows in the Osama photo appear to be incongruous with the indoor lighting.
    -
    -

    leecoughharveycoughoswaldcough

  34. Indeed. Then the Pakistanis could put Bin Laden in protective custody along with that other criminal AQ Khan.

  37. Per Hitchens, here are some thoughtful comments from a couple of lefty academic colleagues of mine to that article. I post them here because many folke are not on FB:

    JJ:
    OK, now I’ve read it. As much as I admire Hedges’ bona fides, he’s evolved into a very univocal thinker and writer, immersed in this “empire” discourse as if it exclusively and unproblematically describes the contemporary world. Sure, there are empire-esque features of the contemporary American M.O. But there are disqualifying features too, including the ways we are so DEEPLY indebted to the other players in a globalized economy and supply chain, as well as several aspect of the playing fields of empires having changed in the 20th C. If we admit that science, industry, technology (especially digital) have made quantum leaps (including the conceptualization of quantum phenomena), we have to accept that politics/global power has perhaps made some quantum leaps as well and as a result. So it’s all well and good to offer perspective from people like Nietzsche and Thucydides, but it’s quite another to write as if simple identity statements between periods of history, or unqualified analogies between them, are anything but the rhetoric of a univocal world view.

    JJ: Also the “recruiting tool” concept is a bit dubious when most intelligence estimates are that AQ’s numbers are dropping, not expanding.

    SF:
    Hedges gave the 2003 commencement address at my college and caused something of a national incident (reported on by the AP anyway–first thing about the college that came up when I googled it upon being invited for an interview). You can youtube the incident. His evil “empire” take on the U.S. is loud and clear in that address. Whatever specific claims one agrees or disagrees with in Hedges various performances (in writing and appearance), I agree with you Jude that his rhetoric is disturbingly univocal. He’s foremost a moralist, one I would categorize among those (too) strong believers bent simply on crushing audiences with a buckshot of logic and point-making. To me he’s a useful example of a unique instance of the misapplication of reason, one in which a lack of sympathetic openness to ranges of opinion and perspective outside of his own does damage to his otherwise trenchant observations. Such dogmatism in persons of lesser intellect is sheer fundamentalism; in persons like Hedges it is tragic because he fails, in Deweyan terms, to work towards reconstruction of the community.

  38. Per Hitchens, here are some thoughtful comments from a couple of lefty academic colleagues of mine to that article.

    Ummm, I can’t take seriously anything written in the above when your colleagues call the man Hedges when he’s famously known as Hitchens.

    And univocal being used twice? Deweyian? Poseur alert.

  39. Bugger — coffee alert. It was Chris Hedges, not Hitchens, in the article.

    BMM, that being said, you’re really not on solid ground to accuse respected scholars of being poseurs.

  40. My attitude on the killing of Osama is simple. Should he have been tried? No. No more than any other combatant in any war anywhere has ever been tried before he or she was KIA. As a simple example, recall that none of the near 60,000 American and not a single one of the more than 2,000,000 Vietnamese who lost their lives in the Vietnam atrocity had a trial.

    War is like that. It fosters consequences that invariably override civilized behavior, consequences that in many cases *define* the precise opposite of civilized behavior.

    As for Nuremberg, the trials were held in defeated Germany, not in the US. They were trials of the vanquished conducted by the victors on the soil of the vanquished. That can work. It’s what Obama should have done with the Bush-Cheney regime, frankly.

  44. Wellll, I’m just glad bin Laden is dead. It opens up two brand new themes for conspiracy theorists. Is he really dead ala Elvis, Jimmy Hoffa et al and is it just a coincidence that Oswald and Osama are such similar names?

    More jobs in the tinfoil hat factories.

  45. Gary, I wasn’t questioning the validity of the people or their points, just the manner in which they expressed their thoughts. To me, it sounded like they were dripping with elitism for elitist’s sake.

    To quote Slim Pickens:

    “God darnit, Mr. Lamarr, you use your tongue prettier than a twenty dollar whore.”

  46. To be clear, it isn’t too early to make dead Bin Laden jokes. Such as, “Sorry Bin Laden died in a mansion and you still have roommates.”

    How soon before Bin Laden replaces Hitler in the pantheon of overblown analogies?

  47. “Pretentious writing” — not sure exactly what that is. Wm. F. Buckley, perhaps? William Wordsworth? I suppose a great deal of academic writing might seem pretentious to some even though it’s common within a given discipline. I know a fellow, for example, a Professor Emeritus at Scripps in LaJolla, who when he writes professionally as a phycologist is beyond the ken of most but appropriate to his field. He also has written numerous books for general public consumption including a somewhat science-based treatise “on shit” as he once described it to me, titled Merde’, which is informative, humorous, and only slightly elevated, linguistically. I dunno, seems to me all’s fair with pen and sword.

  48. How many Republicans did it take to get Osama?

    1) Same number as have put forth legislation for jobs growth?
    2) Tax Cuts for the Rich!

  49. Some student geographers, using techniques designed to track endangered species, came up with an 89 percent probability that bin Laden was living in Abottabad two years ago. Money quote:

    Their prediction of a town was based on a geographical theory called “island biogeography”: basically, that a species on a large island is much less likely to go extinct following a catastrophic event than a species on a small one.

    “The theory was basically that if you’re going to try and survive, you’re going to a region with a low extinction rate: a large town,” Gillespie says. “We hypothesized he wouldn’t be in a small town where people could report on him.”

    “It’s not my thing to do this type of [terrorism] stuff,” he says. “But the same theories we use to study endangered birds can be used to do this.”

    http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2011/05/geographers-had-calculated.html?ref=hp

  51. Hooda, I have it on good authority that the Warren Report did NOT even mention Osama bin Laden. Hard to believe that was just a simple oversight.

  52. Freedom fries, you mean? Are these the same fries you had at 11:55? If not, I think that’s enough carbs for today.

  54. Hi Badmoodman … Yes, I am referring to the same “fries” that I had earlier. In fact, I did feel liberated while consuming same. Thank you for you concern regarding my caloric intake, in any event ;)

    Hey, it got your mind off of world events for a moment, didn’t it? I think we all need a little fun little break from this now and then … :) )

  55. My position: I think that OBL is dead is a good thing for America, it allows an opportunity to change direction in Afghanistan. It is bad for Pakistan, because the repercussions of US disregard for sovereignty will not be known for a while. I don’t think it changes Al Qaeda at all, I think an unknown street vendor in Tunisia did more damage to Al Qaeda than the death of OBL ever would.

    I am concerned that there is still talk of ‘war’ as in the endless ‘war on terra’ and that OBL was not appropriate to ever be brought to trial because this is ‘war’. So is KSM appropriate to be brought to trial? Terrorist throughout history have sought to be seen as warriors not as common criminals. Showing them to be simply criminals with no sense of humanity is a very powerful tool in reminding ourselves what we stand for.

    Because ‘endless war’ is now acceptable in America, OBL’s legacy is that he changed America far more than perhaps America has yet realised.

  60. Because ‘endless war’ is now acceptable in America,

    Only because of the “you can’t miss what you never had” as it applies to dollars being spent.

    What you can miss however, and people fully understand this, is losing the life or limb of a loved one. We wouldn’t have endless war if there was a draft.

  61. We wouldn’t have endless war if there was a draft.

    Amen. The reason we DON’T have a draft is because by 1968 the anti-draft crusade was having a negative impact on the politics of the war in the Nam, and the message was obvious.

    Endless war has actually been part of the American philosophy since the Second World War when it became obvious how much PROFIT there was in war. My favorite incriminating quote is this one by Charles E. Wilson, president of General Electric (1940-42, 1945-50), head of the Office of Defense Mobilization (1951), and US Secretary of Defense (1953-57); in an internal memo, 1944:

    “The revulsion against war . . . will be an almost insuperable obstacle for us to overcome. For that reason, I am convinced that we must begin now to set the machinery in motion for a permanent wartime economy.”

    The implications of that statement have a LONG reach, one that obviously extends through the present moment and beyond.

  63. Yes but it wasn”t until George W Bush that laws that govern a nation at peace were suspended because of an undeclared state of ‘war’. There are no conditions set for when that ‘war’ will be over…. so those laws are now permanently ‘suspended’.

  65. True, Terry. A useful addition to that “permanent wartime economy” theme. No more unnecessary interruptions, the profits now flow without interruption.

    I sometimes think that someone, probably a Ninja type dressed completely in black, ‘explained’ it all to Obama on his first day in the WH. The same thing had been “explained” to JFK about six weeks after he decided to pull out of Vietnam, less than three years after he ‘decided against’ a war with Cuba.

    Can’t deal with no war, man. Ain’t no money in THAT.

  66. Quote of the Day II:

    “This idea we caught bin Laden because of waterboarding I think is a misstatement. This whole concept of how we caught bin Laden is a lot of work over time by different people and putting the puzzle together. I do not believe this is a time to celebrate waterboarding, I believe this is a time to celebrate hard work,” — Senator “Butters.”

  68. It’s probably more fun if everybody is naked and ladies are the ones asking all the questions. I’ll have to ponder that a bit, though.

  69. I think when I was in the Navy I underwent a beer-boarding, I’m not quite sure, memories of that weekend are still a little fuzzy.

  70. Frugal, you mean the same way Minister of Magic Fudge appeared to every new UK Prime Minister to tell him about the World of Wizards and deliberatly not tell him about ‘he-who-must-not-be-named’?

  73. In reference to what Charles Wilson said, what better way to set America up for a permanent wartime economy than to manufacture a nebulous enemy, driven by a fanatical desire to destroy America lead by a mysterious man who could turn men into suicidal killing machines? Hardly a new idea. The Old Man of the Mountain, Hasan-i Sabah, did exist once and did make an attempt to do just that but that was back some thousand years ago.

    I always thought it odd that everyone totally accepted The Bush administration claims about bin Laden, painting him as the ultimate Devil of Islam while they immediately backed off from finding him. Remember their track record? Just what other aspect of the whole 9/11 scenario and the aftermath had a single grain of truth to it?

  75. Quote of the Day III:

    “How many more gay people does God have to create before we ask ourselves if he wants them around?” – Minnesota Representative Steve Simon.

  77. Lawrence O’Donnell just reported W turned down invitation to stand with President at Ground Zero on Thursday.

    • OMG, Pachy — the invitation existed!?

      Thank goodness Bush turned it down, because I would have been retching at that.

  80. Bush’s ego won’t allow sharing of anything. It’s all or nothing for his nothing at all.

  82. Burning up, Ebb, we’ve got a big one in the Gila Wilderness, the Miller Fire.
    I get to go on a two day horse packing trip starting tomorrow, clearing contingency fire lines.

  84. Some of Ted Turner’s bison got loose and wandered nearly 50 miles north and up over the divide.
    I saw one of them (a yearling) galloping along with a cowboy in close pursuit, twirling his lasso… pretty funny sight.
    I love my job…

  86. Every few days I end up back in town and can get a signal to patch in.

  89. It was human caused frugal, but I haven’t heard any particulars.
    There have been three significant fires this spring, and all have been abandoned campfires.
    About six miles from the cliff dwellings…

  91. Hey zxbe…. in a few more minutes the sun will drop lower and it may cool off a bit, it was 80 here today and the trailer is still pretty hot….

  92. Abandoned campfires, yeah, I figured. Those were (are) quite popular in AZ’s Blue Primitive and Apache NF too. You gotta wonder just how it is that so many campers can be SO STUPID! There’s a massive scar in the Blue of probably 40,000 acres from a few years back. Abandoned campfire, backpackers, long way from any road. You’d think they’d understand that you gotta put the thing OUT, then make SURE it’s out, then before you leave make sure two more times, maybe three.

    Hope they get it out or at least contained before it becomes a total disaster. Good luck on your ride.

  93. I’m still waiting, a long time now, for my avatar to change.
    I don’t want to lay awake worrying about it… :)

  94. I’m jealous Raven. We had a “nice” day meaning, there was no precipitation, no hurricane-force winds, and it got up in the 60′s.

  95. We have drought conditions, and the hikers and turkey hunters have to carry all their water, and they don’t want to “waste it” putting out their campfires.
    Idiots.

  97. My avatar has been stuck on this one for hours. What’s up with that?

  98. Wait a minute……know what this means?? Bin Laden must have controlled the avatars!!

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

  100. You did see the piece that Colbert did about the burial at sea? Watch out for Osama Fin Laden.

  102. Run a long – nothing here about climate change. It’s all made up by the commieleftyprogressives/s

    Flying roofing iron skims over homes

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10723266: Do you know this baby?

    Iron from a roof on top of cars parked at the Albany Mega Centre. Photo / Brett Phibbs
    Shocked residents watched in a mixture of amazement and terror as large sheets of iron, car parts and the odd trampoline rained down on their properties during yesterday’s tornado.

  103. hmm, WP may not like having two links in one sentence – apologies for that messy looking thing.

  112. Zooey…. George Clooney quit the show years ago…. go home.

  114. Atrial fibrillation. 200 beats per minute & rhythm all out of whack. rode in a wahmbulance! no Clooney, dammit. okay now.

  115. You are supposed to have a rapid pitter patter heartbeat when you get to the ER and anticipate having George fumble with your blouse with his cold stethescope – you got that in the wrong order. Take the rest of the day off, Zoo… nice to hear you’s oK.

  116. Too much school, house and swooning over the Royals and Osama.

    Relax, girl.

  118. Zooey, please be well. You are way too young to be having heart problems!

    Any idea what caused this to happen? Was it something you ate? Was it an allergic reaction to something? Did a neighbor look at you funny? In New York, that’s grounds for justifiable homicide, you know. ;)

  119. Take it easy Zooey. Put the phone down awhile. We’ll be here when you’re released from the ER.

    I went through a similar thing two years ago. They want to get some data from the monitor, and be sure nothing is imminent. They referred me to our Heart Center for tests, which was standard follow up after any heart issue at the ER, even a false alarm. They did a stress test, some scans, and a sonogram. Now I have a good data baseline on file for later comparison.

  121. I’ve been watching Emergency! reruns lately. I can handle this. Just start an IV with D5W and send a strip of EKG to Rampart.

    Anyway, seriously, hope you are better.

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