Food for Thought on the Palin-Baby Story

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Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC): “I don’t know where she’s traveled to…But it’s not meeting people that matters. You know, President Bush met President Putin. And I don’t think it matters just meeting people. You look at people’s judgment.”

If the “official story” about Palin and her baby is true, then I question her judgment.

Her water breaks while she is in Texas. She chooses not to get medical attention, but to stay and give a speech. (Did anyone mop up after her?)

Then she gets on a commercial aircraft for a several-hour flight, without telling the flight attendants that her water had broken earlier that day. (How did she keep her seat dry?)

This was a premature delivery, and she did not seek medical attention for several hours, and endangered her baby by getting on board an aircraft where there would be no emergency facilities available for hours (or she would have forced an emergency landing enroute).

For someone “pro-life” she certainly showed a callous disregard for the health and safety of her baby.

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303 thoughts on “Food for Thought on the Palin-Baby Story

  1. Let it rip Iolair. She shows the same gud judgement that McIIIrd did when he picked her for veep.

  2. If she did in fact board that plane it shows that she doesn’t truly care about the life of an unborn child. Because she was supposedly two months early with a baby she says she knew had down syndrome. That would have clearly warranted that neonatal care be available the minute she started labor and she should have been on a fetal monitor. Willful disregard for the life of the infant and here we are talking about the infant not the fetus.

    There has to be medical records and a birth certificate and if that was falsified for political reasons and insurance benefits were paid under false pretenses well then that is fraud.

  3. Plus, she said she was breastfeeding. I wonder if her daily schedule included breaks every 2 hours beginning in mid-April…

  4. Shayne, she knew ahead of time that the baby had down syndrome? And she still gave a speech, then took a several-hour flight? Jeez, this story stinks. I have a very twisted mind, and I’m thinking that someone who may be anti-abortion may not be quite as pro-life in some certain circumstances.

  5. You said it, Shayne! Check the birth certificate. The real one. She wants to be Vice President? Let’s see her complete medical records, too.

    You know, the medical records might be the camels that were out back humping in the straw, or something like that.

    Either she refuses to disclose her medical records at all, which would mean the kiss of death, especially when the story going around is that the records would confirm her story, if true; or,

    She discloses her records and they show she was indeed pregnant, as she claims, which would mean that she exhibited extremely poor judgment regarding a complicated birth; or,

    She discloses her records and they show no signs of being pregnant with this child, which would also mean the end of her career, not only as potential future vice president, but as governor of Alaska (not to mention the possible insurance fraud, et cetera.)

    I just don’t see how she comes out of this smelling like a rose. Or a camel.

  6. More news: McCain and Palin are going to use this next hurricane for a photo-op:

    Likely GOP presidential nominee John McCain and his running mate, Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, are traveling to Mississippi on Sunday to check on people getting prepared for Hurricane Gustav.

    Will she be bringing her baby along, too?

  7. If she didn’t have prenatal care then she didn’t know that she was carrying a down syndrome child as she claims. Which means she is politicizing this pregnancy and this child.

    If she did know then she put the infant at risk by getting on this plane and no airline would have let her on if they had known. So she concealed information that would have put that infant at risk especially when by her own admission the child was early. In some instances she says two months and in other one.

  8. March 6 she told her colleagues she was 7 months pregnant. Of course if it wasn’t her pregnancy and she was going by the date her daughter told her then the calculations could have been off. Something is rotten in Denmark and bad judgment was used regardless of what the other details are.

  9. You know what I love. The way Obama and Biden haven’t gotten their hands dirty with this whole mess. They’ve taken the high road and now McCain can dig himself out of this pile of shit he’s stepped in.

  10. Palins’ child diagnosed with Down syndrome
    FAMILY FEELS BLESSED: Back at work already, governor says she wasn’t in labor in Texas.

    By LISA DEMER
    ldemer@adn.com

    Published: April 22nd, 2008 01:11 AM
    Last Modified: April 22nd, 2008 12:05 PM

    Gov. Sarah Palin was back at work Monday in Anchorage, holding a meeting on the proposed natural gas pipeline three days after giving birth to her fifth child.

    ***snip***

    Early Thursday — she thinks it was around 4 a.m. Texas time — she consulted with her doctor, family physician Cathy Baldwin-Johnson, who is based in the Valley and has delivered lots of babies, including Piper, Palin’s 7-year-old.

    Palin said she felt fine but had leaked amniotic fluid and also felt some contractions that seemed different from the false labor she had been having for months.

    “I said I am going to stay for the day. I have a speech I was determined to give,” Palin said. She gave the luncheon keynote address for the energy conference.

    Palin kept in close contact with Baldwin-Johnson. The contractions slowed to one or two an hour, “which is not active labor,” the doctor said.

    “Things were already settling down when she talked to me,” Baldwin-Johnson said. Palin did not ask for a medical OK to fly, the doctor said.

    “I don’t think it was unreasonable for her to continue to travel back,” Baldwin-Johnson said.

    So the Palins flew on Alaska Airlines from Dallas to Anchorage, stopping in Seattle and checking with the doctor along the way.

    Baldwin-Johnson is a doctor who doesn’t think it was unreasonable for a woman whose water broke prematurely to get onboard a jet and fly for several hours with no medical services available? Perhaps the AMA should look into the good Doctor’s judgment as well. What if her contractions started coming 5 minutes apart while the plane was at 30,000 feet? Remember, none of the flight attendents were alerted to the fact that she was pregnant (she said she wasn’t that large, so no one noticed) and that her water had already broken.

  11. DailyKos has a very informative article on this. I would reccomend it.

    I saw this earlier this morning, but decided not even to repeat it, because at that point, it was really just gossip, from National Enquirer or some such.

    If this is even partly true, she’s done. If she got on a plane and was leaking fluid at the time, only to go even deeper into the “sticks” of Alaska to her favorite doc, then her decision making is way questionable. As is the choice to even have a 5th child at her age, as the Gov.

    And if it really isn’t her child, then, she is probably done as well. The embarasment to the family and the child, and the media attention will be way to much for the little girl (the 16 year old that is).

    DailyKos is under the impression that they just didn’t vet this candidate well enough, but I ask, how in heck can they RNC miss something so obvious? So big? They couldn’t have.

    Which is why I think, if this is at all what people are suggesting it is, that the McCain people USED this woman, knowing full well what was in store for her, as an attempt to say “see? we tried.”. And she will back out gracefully, leaving them to pick someone else. Someone more, neocon old white guy shall we say.

  12. Can’t sleep. When my significant other was seven months in, she wore a top that could house an OPEC convention. Sounds fishy to me!

  13. Well, if she is covering for her kid at the risk of her own career, then they could spin that i suppose. But the cost to the little girl would be way to much.

    If Palin still pushes it, yes that is shocking.

    But what is more shocking, I think, is not mommy covering for the daughter, but the callousness of the monsters of the mcCain camp for setting this up knowing they had a way out of it, just to distract from obama’s speech and his moment in the sun.

    But, it all remains to be seen. I think, like I said earlier, that this is one horribly cruel ploy from mcCain’s people.

  14. Gov. Palin’s opted to board a jet from Dallas in April while about to deliver a child. Gov. Palin, who was eight months pregnant, says she felt a few contractions shortly before she was to give a keynote speech to an energy summit of governors in Dallas. But she says she went ahead with it after her doctor in Alaska advised her to put her feet up to rest. “I was not going to miss that speech,” she says.

    She rushed so quickly from the podium afterwards that Texas Gov. Rick Perry nervously asked if she was about to deliver the baby then. She made it to the airport, and gave birth hours after landing in Anchorage to Trig, who is diagnosed with Down Syndrome. “Maybe they shouldn’t have let me fly, but I wasn’t showing much so they didn’t know,” she says.

  15. Well Walt I had a risky pregnancy and at almost term my daughter only weight 4lbs. l ounce. And I had almost no amniotic fluid and it was my first pregnancy. According to he March 6 press conference she believed she was two months early. I had amniocentesis 4 weeks early and my daughter’s lungs weren’t ready for her to be delivered. So you want to tell me that a obstetrician would tell this woman who is leaking fluid and having contractions with a down syndrome, early baby to get on a plane? I’ll show you either a very bad obstetrician, a woman who doesn’t care about the outcome of the pregnancy, or a big fat lie, one.

  16. She knew last December that the baby had Downs Syndrome:

    Palin’s Baby Defies Our ‘Culture of Death’
    Albert Mohler
    President, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary

    Originally published on Crosswalk.com May 6, 2007

    A little boy with an extra chromosome was born on April 18. His name is Trig Paxson Van Palin and his new home is the Alaska Governor’s Mansion in Juneau. His mom is Governor Sarah Palin, who along with her husband Todd, has welcomed Trig as their second son and fifth child.

    Governor Palin has already made a mark on the political scene. A high school basketball star and beauty queen, she was elected Alaska’s governor in 2006. She is often mentioned as a potential running mate for Sen. John McCain. The Palins’ other children include Track, their oldest son, who now serves in the U.S. Army. They also have three daughters, Bristol, Willow, and Piper.

    Trig made news long before he was born, as Alaska’s citizens learned that their governor was pregnant. Then, for the Palins, the story got more complicated.

    This past December, Sarah Palin was told that her baby was likely to have Down syndrome — just one extra chromosome.

    Note that back in May, Palin was already being mentioned (often) as a potential running mate for McCain, so there is no excuse for not fully vetting this story.

    Once again, if the baby is hers, then she showed, in my opinon, incredibly bad judgment getting on a plane from Texas to Alaska after her water broke one to two months premature, and even further bad judgment not notifying the flight attendants of her condition.

  17. If she is covering up for the daughter then she is still politicizing the event by saying that SHE carried the baby to term knowing he had down syndrome.

  18. She says now that she knew the baby had down syndrome but when she announced the pregnancy to her colleagues no mention was made of it.

  19. Well that could be the case Shayne, and if she is, then that is clearly wrong.

    But it could also be that the real mother of the child, who was raised by this “Feminist For Life” pro-life activist, had adopted the mothers opinions about abortion, and SHE didn’t want to terminate.

    I just don’t know. But, in the right to Life movement they often suggest adoption as an option for unwed teen mothers, which, I guess, is what MAY have happened in this case. i don’t know. But either way, like you say, it isn’t good.

  20. In the end, this will ultimately be harder on the 16 year old than anyone else. And I seriously doubt McCain’s people “missed” this: I think they “employed” it for their own purposes. And if that is the case, it is the most deplorable aspect of this whole story.

  21. If we assume that the “official story” is indeed a cover-up for her daughter’s pregnancy, what then does that tell you about Palin’s judgment? Do we want someone who lies and engages in a cover-up? Haven’t we had enough of that?

    And, it begs the question; if they had to cover-up their daughter’s pregnancy, who’s the father?

  22. I don’t think many people terminate down syndrome pregnancies. That is what the anti-abortion people don’t understand.

    But if they knew there was not way they would ever terminate a pregnancy why would they bother to take tests to diagnose down syndrome or spina bifida? That’s why I don’t believe these tests were taken no matter who carried the child. And her saying she carried the baby to term to fortify her anti-abortion stance is disingenuous.

  23. What it says Iolair is she believes she can get away with lying and probably has been for a long time. The fact that she fired that safety guy because he wouldn’t fire her brother inlaw. Well I heard that guy yesterday and he sounds pretty reputable. But she’s all cavalier saying she welcomes the investigation because she has nothing to hide. I think she’s very good at lying but not used to getting caught.

  24. Now see… that’s what I am talking about. This MAY be a 16 year old we are talking about. Do you understand that? It isn’t ANY of our business who daddy is. I have clearly stated that either way, this should pretty much terminate her selection as VP choice, because it doesn’t show the best judgement either way, on Palin’s part. But the question here shouldn’t be “how quick can we pick apart the 16 year old kid?” the question everyone should be asking is “how did McCains people miss this? Or even DID they miss this in the first place?”

  25. Shayne,
    If your first born weighed about four pounds and lungs were not ready, she was born 8-12 weeks early and you missed between one and two periods before she was conceived. Lungs are fully developed 6-9 weeks before a normal delivery date. That’s the reason preemies are placed in incubators. Brain function is complete 12 weeks before the normal delivery date.

  26. “And her saying she carried the baby to term to fortify her anti-abortion stance is disingenuous.”

    that is true. but IF she wanted to cover for her child, and the child was against terminating, then it would be the only way she could justify having her 5th child in office. So, she spun it to try and protect her position. Which is like you said, disingenuous.

  27. A big part of this story, if it is still vetted out there, is didn’t the girl miss alot of time from school around this time for “mono”?

  28. Walt, I was on infertility treatment and had my first ultrasound withing weeks of conception when they can still tell almost to the day when you conceived. I had intrauterine growth retardation due to corrective surgury. They were trying to deliver her as early as possible because she wasn’t growing and I had very little amniotic fluid. But they did not want to deliver her until her lungs were ready. As soon as they were they delivered her at 37 1/2 weeks. But lungs are not always ready when they should be and that’s why a doctor would have been reckless to tell her to come home.

  29. What I find irritating if this story is in fact true is that she exposed her whole family including her daughter and grandson to this exposure when she didn’t have to . What will that say about the character of this woman. Either she is very dumb or very selfish or both.

  30. Well, however this turns out, it isn’t going to be good; for Palin or her daughter. And the real bad news here is, no matter how unqualified Palin is for the job, …she isn’t a monster.

    And there are plenty of rethuglican neocon monsters that are more than willing to take her place.

  31. “…if this story is in fact true is that she exposed her whole family including her daughter and grandson to this exposure when she didn’t have to .”

    yep. that is the truth.

  32. I don’t have time to read all the comments before but I wanted to offer this..

    I am a mother of a child with Down Syndrome. I tried breast feeding. The fact is they have very poor muscle tone, and that means great difficulty with breast feeding. The muscle tone is especially bad in their mouth and with their tongue. They can’t suck very well. I tried breast feeding but found I was having to feed him almost around the clock in little bits. His digestive system was also underdeveloped (event though he was only ten days premature). We eventually had to go to bottle and that still was difficult.
    This story is strange to me. Very strange.

    My husband is a physician. His first comment was that if her water broke, no airlines would ever let her on board. It doesn’t happen. A mother who has already had 4 children would NEVER fly across country once her water had broken. It would absolutely jeopardize the safety of both the child and the mother.
    Again, this story makes NO sense.

  33. Boy, Shayne,
    That is really unusual. Carried near past term and underweight. My eldest was 9 lb 3 oz and the middle one 11 lb 13 oz. The last was the runt of the litter at 8 lb 5 oz (He was almost born in a VW Karmann Ghia.). The OBG said that it was an unfortunate confluence of genes.

  34. And once last comment, being the mother of an infant with Down Syndrome, that first two years was practically round the clock care. Between the appointments and all the early intervention and physical therapy appointments, the exercises and care I had to take on at home every day with special exercises I had to do WITH him myself throughout every day, I hardly had time to take care of my home, my husband, and my other three children.

    I’ll say it a third time.. This story makes no sense.

  35. It is a very strange story indeed. Some on the Kos thread were suggesting it may be a red-herring planted to paint the liberal blog-o-sphere as a bunch of gouls picking on a mother and her down-syndrome child. I don’t know. I don’t put anything past any politician these days. or their handlers.

  36. If she was trying to help out a daughter by raising this child, I admire her. That is a huge thing to take on.
    If she did that, fabricated a huge story and then stood up in front of the nation and lied, extending the lie by going on about her social political agenda, then that is despicable.

    I am just so very tired of the lies.

  37. Thanks for your personal expertise, muse. It must have been a very tough time for you.

    Which makes Palin’s story all the more unbelievable. So WTF really went on?

  38. No walt she was 2 1/2 weeks early but considered basically full term.

    It just seems absurd that a 44 year old woman wouldn’t know better than to get on a plane while she was already having contractions and leaking fluid.

  39. I agree Muse. but if this is true, then the mcCain people had to have uncovered it awhile ago, and they had to have planned for it to get out. Which means they used everyone involved as well, which is deplorable as well, IMO.

  40. That’s true willy but it was her responsibility to look out for the well being of her family. Nobody else’s.

  41. Nobody will go after her for this story. It would be attacking a woman with a 4 month old special needs child. Nobody will touch it.

  42. When Kay’s water broke (third kid), I took her to the hospital and drove 90 miles and back to pick up and retrieve her mom, elapsed time, three hours. By that time, babe was in the incubator and smiling. I didn’t even have to pace. Palin must have one set of knees.

  43. Lieberman, definitely.

    Shit I’d rather W have his finger on the button than that woman. And that is scary.

  44. Do you really believe that muse? The story of this woman is a runaway train and everything will come out now, it has to.

  45. Walt, that was why my hubby said this story was totally bogus. 4 kids already and she decided to get on a plane to Alaska from Dallas after her water had broken and she supposedly had been having labor pains? I don’t think so. That would be the most irresponsible act of a mother ever. I think it was her daughter, and she got a call the child was being born, and she raced to get on that plane to get home in time. That is the only thing that makes ANY sense.

  46. It’s Alaska. Come on.. It was probably a home birth with a midwife. Records are easy things to fix.
    I’ve long given up believing the truth would come out on anything.

  47. I always thought that 39 weeks was considered normal. In my mind that translates to nine months.

  48. Well, I just finished watching “Les Miserables” with the hubby. The one with Michael Rennie as Jean Valjean. I’m off to bed. Night folks.

  49. I have to say one more thing..

    I didn’t have the test when I was pregnant with my son with DS. I was 29 and the odds weren’t such that I would have a baby with DS. (Sort of like winning the lottery I guess..)
    I am grateful I didn’t have the test, because honestly, I don’t know if I would have had the courage to go through with it given the experience I had witnessed with a friend and her daughter.
    We went through two months of shock and devastation after he was born. There were some health problems as well. Too much to write about here. Anyways, since then he has been incredibly challenging, but an absolute gift that has taught me more about life than anything I have ever experienced in my entire lifetime. I appreciate every moment, and every single milestone.
    Okay, enough said..

  50. I didn’t have the test either because there is a risk that you can lose the pregnancy and I wasn’t willing to take the chance. I was actually at the testing place and backed out. That’s why I’m thinking they didn’t know about it before the delivery. I did see somewhere that the name of the hospital was listed.

  51. lets see Shayne;

    Palin MAY HAVE lied to cover for her daughter and faked this whole thing.
    Palin is investigated for the firing of a state cop based on her sister’s divorce.
    Palin has ties to big Oil.
    and of course, she was a beauty queen.

    lieberman co-founded With Lynne Cheney the American Council of Trustees and Alumni (ACTA).
    Lieberman helped create and will sit on the board of the HomeGrown Terrorism Act.
    Lieberman broke with democrats and voted for the Class Action Fairness Act of 2005, S. 5, which is a bill to curtail the ability of plaintiffs to file class action lawsuits against corporations in federal courts.
    Lieberman refused to support a filibuster against Supreme Court Justice nominee Samuel Alito.
    Lieberman launched the 2004 Committee on the Present Danger, with Senator Jon Kyl as the honorary co-chairs. It is a pro-war, “war on terror” implementing committee.
    Lieberman sponsored the Iraq War resolution in the Senate of 2002.
    Lieberman supported the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) and continues to do so.
    Lieberman proposed forming the Department of Homeland Security.
    Lieberman, In comparing Moses to Hagee, admitted that Hagee made hurtful and offensive comments, but stated that “Even Moses fell short of God’s expectations.”
    Lieberman is the biggest supporter of the invasion of Iran in the Senate.
    Lieberman got that kiss from Bush at the 2005 SOTU address.
    lieberman worked hard to sell the surge.
    Lieberman said “It is time for Democrats who distrust President Bush to acknowledge that he will be Commander-in-Chief for three more critical years, and that in matters of war we undermine Presidential credibility at our nation’s peril.”

    I don’t think it’s close, really. Sorry for the long post, but Lieberman is a pet pieve of mine. right now, she is the VP pick, and I for one hope it stays that way.

  52. Lots of people choose not to have the test Shayne because they don’t want to be faced with HAVING to make make a choice. I agree with that. They shouldn’t have to decide on something like that.
    I have spoken with families who have had to agonize over what they should do (out of fear of the unknown). It is a horrible thing to have to make a decision about.

    Some people feel that it is better to end the pregnancy rather than bring a DS baby into the world (like they would suffer or be subhuman or something – their life would have less value). I just know that my son is one of the most happy, loving, excited, FUNNY, joyous people on this planet. He gets SUCH joy from the simplest things.. He has a terrible temper too, but the joy and excitement is contagious. He doesn’t worry about tomorrow. Oh, to be like that.

  53. Frankly, I can’t see them handing over the newly crafted position of Vice Cheney to someone who isn’t a diehard neocon. it doesn’t make sense. they have rewritten the legal standing of the VP role for 8 years, to do what with it? Hand it off to someone who isn’t a zeolot? I find that hard to believe.

  54. I think down syndrome would be a very hard decision to make. There are other more devastating disorders that involve pain and worse outcomes for the infant that would make the decision slightly easier to make. Down syndrome children can be so high functioning to make that decision would be nearly impossible. Unless of course you had not money or options or spouse and you were totally unable to care for even a healthy child. I would think you’d worry more about finding an adoptive family at that point but maybe not.

  55. Willy I have seen this woman on the tape where she says she doesn’t even know what the vice president does. And she didn’t know anything about the Iraq war. I’ll take somebody with even the slightest clue over that. I can’t stand Lieberman but this woman is a bigger rube than W and we can’t afford to do any worse than that. We don’t have much of a margin of error.

  56. Sarah Palin is McCain’s Harriet Miers, she’ll be gone within the next few weeks.

    Whoever McCain picks after this fiasco will cause a great big sigh of relief from the right.

    It won’t be Lieberman.

  57. I agree covering for the daughter makes sense. But they could have come out and admitted their daughter “made a mistake” but will be carrying her out-of-wedlock child to term and raise the baby.

    That would have scored major points with pro-life, and pro-family, all-is-forgiven folks. That’s why I wonder if maybe they’re covering for the father, whomever he may be.

    Then again, maybe the “official story” is correct, and Palin lacks the good sense to get herself into a hospital in an emergency.

  58. I am always up this late. How are you? I hope you are right about old Joe there. But as you can tell, I agree with you. I don’t think she was ever supposed to go ‘full term” with this VP thing. (that was bad wasn’t it?)

  59. There’s a thread about Gustav below this one. Terrifying.

    My sister and her family are in Corpus Christi. I hope they get the hell out of there.

    This is going just like Katrina, except it didn’t have Florida to slow it down.

  60. dad was stationed in Corpus Christi when I was a kid, i remember the house there. one of the earliest memories I have. i hope your sister gets out. it’s going to pass right by me on the way there I think. i’ll put a letter in the tree, and see if your sister gets it. G-Mail.

  61. The fastest G-Mail on the planet, I’m sure. 🙂

    Apparently McCain and his crew are thinking about touring and giving speeches down there. Selfish bastards. Imagine the security detail involved — that could be helping to get people out of there.

  62. nagin told people yesterday to get out or face it on their own. nice huh? Poor people walking to Texas for their very lives. what a country huh?

  63. you know the only thing I have really done with any real consistancy over the past year + has been that site? thats it. of course having two DVTs and a P.E. or two will tend to slow one down abit I guess.

  64. Considering the flight was 8 hours to get to Alaska with a stop in Seattle first. Then she didn’t go to the first available hospital. Palin goes to a remote medical clinic disregarding the fact that there could be complications. Plus, they are not equipped to handle those kind of emergenies. Doesn’t sound like a great judgement call to me.

  65. Willy,

    the father’s identity is relevant, if it’s being covered up for political reasons. But that, again, is assuming the “official story” was fabricated.

    And, assuming for a moment that the “official story” was fabricated…is it still so great an embarassment for one’s teenage daughter to get pregnant that one must go to such lengths to cover for her?

    Kids make mistakes. It happens. The hard part is to continue to love and support them no matter how badly they screw up. That would have made a better “American Family” story than concocting a fake pregnancy by mom.

  66. Ah, still on that a day later huh?

    Though it MAY be relevant, if it is not Palin’s child (which we have ONLY deduced at this point through circumstancial evidence, in case you haven’t noticed), it is still not your business or the country’s business both legally and morally speaking. She is Still a minor in the eyes of the LAW.

    Now, that aside, it’s none of our business what the kid did or did not do; what IS our business is to find out if the McCain camp’s pick, the POTENTIAL VP is in fact lying through her teeth. IF that is the case, then, of course she is NOT fit for the job.

    However, what the MSM really done about lies from the VP office in the past 8 years?

    “…is it still so great an embarassment for one’s teenage daughter to get pregnant that one must go to such lengths to cover for her?”

    Well, I don’t know in YOUR house how that works, just like I don’t know how it works in THEIR house. It’s not your kid so I guess it isn’t your place to make that decision.

    Once again, there must be limits to what people will do to gain a political advantage. it’s not like this woman crashed planes into the towers and covered it up. It’s not like they sent anthrax to the congress.

    The point is very simple; this is a CHILD. Someone’s CHILD. And we shouldn’t attempt to pry the lid off of this so much that the only casualty becomes that CHILD.

    Wayne suggested getting Palin’s medical records and I am fully behind that. But that should be the end of it (as long as they aren’t forged).

    We run the risk here of looking like Malkin when she went after that kid over the SCHIP Program to discredit the democrats position on it.

    What’s even worse, is that we run the risk of ACTING like Malkin; putting “Party” before our core humanitarian priciples.

    As for Shayne’s comment about tossing her to “the wolves” to protect the Democratic Party, well, I am going to operate on the assumption that she is clearly talking about the mother, Gov. Palin. That of course, is all good in love and war. She is a public figure, so she should have expected this.

    Either way, it doesn’t matter, I am pretty sure she is done anyway if this gets to the MSM, which it will, because I think McCain’s people will eventually feed it to them.

  67. Zooey;

    Yes it seems that this is just a staged event, and there will be a different pick. Seems that way at least.

    Well, guess what?

    “For weeks, advisers close to the campaign said, Mr. McCain had wanted to name as his running mate his good friend Senator Joseph I. Lieberman of Connecticut…” NYT

    It seems the NYT is already floating this potential outcome, not more than two days after her “historic” nomination?

    Now, I may have been wrong about what happened in the end, but you should admit, I picked this one in Jan. 2006. And were it not for this little game the mcCain camp has been playing to get people behind someone else, I was pretty damn close. mcCain WANTED Lieberman, and may in fact still pick Lieberman.

    Just look above for the reasons I know that would be a huge problem for all of us out here in Liberal blogland.

  68. Willy – we’ll have to agree to disagree on the issue of the baby’s father. After all, it only comes into play if, and only if, the “official story” is false.

  69. willy, you better get some sleep because you’re clearly having reading comprehension problems. I didn’t say to throw her to the wolves to save the Democrats, I said to save the COUNTRY. Should McCain/Palin win or steal the election we will be the laughingstock of the world. Well they’ll be laughing at us and crying for the world.

  70. Yeah willy, it’s not about the country, it’s about you being right about the Lieberman issue. Got ego?

  71. Well, I think it may be fair to say at this point, that the “official” story, like many others have pointed out, is very “strange” to the point that it is probably untrue.

    That being said, I don’t have to agree to disagree at all. if this site thinks it is within fair bounds to call for investigation/media demonization of children to advance political agendas, then that is just sick in my opinion.

    Now, I am sure, that you keep harping on the father because you happen to have something in the back of your mind that says this story may be more sordid than is obvious at this point. Of course, as you know all of us “rubes” behave “in certan ways”…

    But, that is, of course, dismissive, elitist, and bigoted in the end. But, it’s a good thing that the “progressives” around here, with these kinds of inuendos and comments like “rubes” are keeping the unity spirit alive in the Democratic Party.

    So what we “have” to agree on is that in the end, Palin will be out, and someone 9like I have shown above) LIKE Lieberman, if NOT Lieberman, will be in.

    The “rube” will be gone leaving room for the Big City supporter of war with iran and BushCo’s Iraq occupation and the HomeGrown Security Act. Oh, that is MUCH better than a “rube”, huh?

  72. Shayne, your “rube” comment tells me everything I need to know about what you think about this “country” and the people in it.

    The last good President we had was named Jimmy Carter, and he was, as you would put it, a “rube”.

    Laughing stock? Is that the measuring stick here? Unbelievable.

  73. I love Jimmy Carter and voted for him, twice. I don’t think he is a rube, you do. He’s another highly educated intelligent person, just like Hillary, Bill, Obama. I don’t believe being a rube has anything to do with where you’re from. Did you hear her speak about not knowing what a VP does.

    I guess you’re going to be whining until your Lieberman prediction comes to fruition. And stop putting word in MY mouth. You have enough trouble spelling your own.

  74. Oh and willy, I’ve always thought you were an independent not a Democrat. So you aren’t a Critter her and you still want to run the place. And you’re not a Democrat and you want to speak for them. You’re the kind of guy who dumps a woman and then tells her how to live the rest of her life. In short, you’re a bully. And frankly, I don’t deal well with bullies.

  75. ah, now the personal attacks start up again. Nice. You can make-up whatever you want for the definition of “rube” but we all know what it means. And my Lieberman article I quoted above is there to make people worried about his potential VP selection. Like the list I put up of his track record, which, you ignored, just like all the other facts anyone puts up on this site that don’t jive with your world view. Lieberman is a monster, not a “rube” and I think that is much much worse. But apparently you don’t.

  76. “You’re the kind of guy who dumps a woman and then tells her how to live the rest of her life.”

    WTF are you taling about? Do you have ANYTHING to base that on? OMG! Project much there Shayne?!

    Wow! Now we see what it is.

  77. Willy sez:
    if this site thinks it is within fair bounds to call for investigation/media demonization…

    No one is calling for anything. Everything on this post is mere speculation.

  78. I’m having a conversation, not “running the place”.
    LOL. Wow. Yeah, i can see this is just about this little chat, huh? Not bringing any other baggage into this fight are we? jesus.

    Were is the Io person to say :”Please stay on topic, Shayne.” LOL.

  79. You’re back to telling people what they really mean when they speak because they don’t know themselves. I wish I was half as smart as you think you are willy. I was just looking at your site, some deep stuff over there.

    You think Lieberman who has not been nominated is the problem and Palin who has isn’t. Lieberman is a monster but his state voted him back in, there’s nothing I can do about that. He’s not running for VP at this time.

    You dish out personal attacks constantly and then when somebody says something back you’re shocked. You reap what you sow is the most polite thing I can say about this. I removed what I just typed because it was much nastier than that.

    Push people willy and they push back. Maybe you’re used to people who give in to you all the time, maybe in person your hot temper makes people back down. But I’ve never been smart enough to back down from bullies and I’m not going to start now. You don’t like what I have to say, too bad. Because you’ve been bullying people for two days and you’ll not be getting an apology from me. No way, now how.

  80. I already typed the last comment before I read your’s Zooey and after what I said I’m reluctant to have it removed.

  81. Willy,

    no where did this site call for an investigation/media demonization of children. Do not criticize me or this cite for the words you attempt to put in our mouths.

  82. yes I read it. and it is informative. but I liked the opening of the last paragraph were she states “While many will most likely be disappointed in me “going to this level,…”

    She clearly gets it. This is a touchy issue. Leave the kid out of it. If it was your child, there would be no question about that.

  83. And, yes, Zooey, we should stick to the topic. I’ve noticed Willy has a tendency to play tit-for-tat until someone finally blows up at him, at which time he can claim some sort of moral victory, a very troll-like behavior pattern.

    To summarize the main point of this thread:

    If Palin’s “official story” about the birth of this baby is correct, then her judgment is seriously questionable, in my opinion.

  84. I don’t know Iolair. Walking to work in high heals 6 months pregnant. That’s another think they warn about since your body is off balance when you’re pregnant. And she’s walking to work up and down hills on them to work. If she was pregnant that’s not as risky as boarding a plane with contractions but still unwise.

  85. BuzzFlash is on this story now..
    http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/alerts/476

    They don’t mention much about the photos, nor do they get that it isn’t so much about LYING who gave birth to this baby, but she is politicizing this special needs baby by using her own infant in the argument against a woman’s right to an abortion.
    I don’t care for all the standing in front of a camera and lying either.

  86. Well, IF the story is true, yes, it leads to questions of her judgement. I think ALL of the candidates for Pres and VP have made bad judgement calls in the past.

    IF it is infact her daughters child, then so be it. It need to stop at that. After all, families are supposed to be off limits.

  87. HB,

    Are you saying that because there’s a possibility this child might be her daughter’s child, we should stop checking it out and let it go — simply because families are supposed to off limits and other VP picks have made errors in judgment?

    BTW, no one here is attacking the daughter. Palin is fair game.

  88. Palin is fair game, agreed.

    What I am saying is:

    IF it is found out that the child is not Palin’s, but infact her daughters, we need to leave it at that.

    We do not have a legal or moral right to know WHO the father is or under what circumstances the child was concieved.

  89. HB, I would agree with you if she hadn’t already started holding up that child to press home her political social agenda of no abortions under any circumstances for any woman. When she stands in front of the cameras and makes up elaborate stories (if the child is not hers, and I can’t imagine how it could possibly be) of how they knew the child had DS and they decided to not end the pregnancy because they don’t believe in abortion, then she is both lying and now USING that child for politics and furthering her political agenda.

    I admire families that help their children out of a difficult situation like that. I would do the same for my own daughter. If in fact they did that, they should have kept it private and kept the story of this child out of the public and political stage, and not used that story (likely fabricated and elaborated on) to further her agenda.
    I have no need to know who the father is. That is none of my business. I am just looking at her honesty, her motives, her judgment, and her character. Those things matter when it comes to deciding who is fit to lead this country.

  90. HB sez:
    We do not have a legal or moral right to know WHO the father is or under what circumstances the child was concieved.

    I agree with that.

    However, Palin would have to be gone.

    Agreed?

  91. muse,

    long and short is, if it is not Palins child, it still reenforces her pro-life stance. Instead of having her daughter abort the child, she raised it herself.

  92. I’m with Zooey, hackerbob. The story is most definitely NOT “off-limits” just because the baby might actually be her daughter’s (and there seems to be evidence that supports this). Depending on whom they tried to defraud, there may be legal issues with this. It’s about more than simply whether or not she lied, and about even more than whether or not she exercised good judgment (which she seems not to have done in any case), it’s also about abuse of the public trust. And this story, combined with her alleged attempts to retaliate against her ex-brother-in-law, show that she cannot be trusted by the public to act in their best interests. She financially ruined the town she was once mayor of, so she shouldn’t have that role again. She abused her authority and may have lied to cover up her daughter’s pregnancy, so she shouldn’t be governor again. Why should she be trusted to be vice president to a man who may keel over at any moment and die?

  93. I agree HB, but she is trying to pass it off as her own decision for her own reasons, which would be a lie, and it would be using that child to support her political views and agenda. I admire her for deciding to raise the child themselves. I don’t admire her standing up and lying constantly about it. They should just be quiet and private about it, raise that child quietly, instead of trying to paint this elaborate fabrication and use it to put forward her own experience for political purpose.

    I am tired of all the lies. I am tired of all the misleading. People will look up to her for making such a difficult decision, when it wasn’t hers. I can’t stand that part.

    She should have just refused to put her family up to the scrutiny of the world by not accepting the VP nod. She had to know what it would mean. I don’t respect her for that.

  94. Z,

    Not necessarily.

    Even though she may have brought the child (or children) into the public light, that still does not give US the right to cut into them. They are CHILDREN. Hell, we are not allowed to criticize statement made by spouses while they are activly campaigning for their husbands.

    IF (big if) it is not Palins child, and she comes out and says “The child is my daughters, I took it to raise,” and the public accepts that, so be it. You still keep your hands off the kids.

    But I find it funny that no news agencies are reporting this. It is a blog story, hence unreliable at best.

  95. Zooey
    August 31, 2008 at 11:20 am
    It also reinforces that Palin is a liar, user, and manipulator.

    So, you are saying that she is a politician?

  96. HB, nobody is going after the child. Nobody would. They are questioning her judgment and her character. I am questioning it. Big time. Especially as the mother of two special needs children (one with DS). I would NEVER put one of those children in that kind of position.

  97. Wayne sez:
    And this story, combined with her alleged attempts to retaliate against her ex-brother-in-law…

    You mean the trooper that tased his 11 y/o step son and threatened to kill her father?

  98. I see how it is. Um, how many big stories have been broken by blogs — doing the media’s fucking job?

    I never would have thought such behavior would be ok with you, HB. Lying about her own pregnancy, using her children to put forward her agenda, manipulating the public trust.

    Wow.

  99. muse,

    I am not saying that anyone IS attacking the child. All I am saying is that if it is found out that the child is not hers, fine, go after her. But don’t drag the baby or the 16 year old into it.

    Question Palins judgement and character all you want. Families are off limits.

  100. Zooey,

    Prove the lie first.

    Are you saying that if you caught Obama in a lie, he would be out? Or Biden?

    Come on, take a stand.

  101. bob, who is attacking any of the children here? You keep saying that the kids (I assume you mean both the infant with DS and the daughter who may have given birth to her) are off limits. Well, I don’t see anyone claiming the daughter did anything wrong. But I do see the governor possibly making false statements in an effort to gain the public trust, and that should never be overlooked. Forget about Bristol. The only thing I want to know about her is whether or not she is actually the mother. After that, ALL of my criticisms are directed toward Gov Palin for how she handled the situation, whether or not she is the mother of that baby. If she isn’t, she perpetrated a massive fraud on the public, and if she is, she exercised extremely poor judgement in how she went about this pregnancy.

  102. HB,

    You just acknowledged that we are not attacking the child, but then re-assert that families are off limits.

    You’re going in circles here.

  103. What kind of lies, HB?

    Does forgetting to cite someone in a speech, after citing them in many speeches beforehand, equal the magnitude of publicly lying about a pregnancy, using your children, and perpetrating a fraud?

    Standards slipping?

  104. And she would have been the person to drag those children into this by putting them in front of the national spotlight, and fabricating such an elaborate tale that she is using on the stump. I think that bothers me more than anything.

  105. As for the ex-brother-in-law story, it doesn’t matter how abusive he was to her sister, she had no right to use her position as governor to retaliate against him. She could have filed all the legal forms any other citizen could file to try to get a state trooper fired for cause, but she had no right to try to order the head of the state troopers to fire him.

    Bob, stop causing trouble. You’re being extremely obtuse. If you think Palin did nothing wrong under ANY of the scenarios put forth, then you have no sense of “right and wrong”.

    That’s it, I’m out of here.

  106. So, I took my stand, by saying it could be explained away. As usual, Zooey chose not to take one.

    Wayne, what influance exactally did she use? The face that she fired the Public Safety Commissioner (an at-will empolyee) that wasn’t doing his job and then offered him another position as the as the executive director of the state Alcoholic Beverage Commission?

    If she lied about the child, that is wrong. Look at the reasons for the lies. And she wouldn’t be the only politician to lie about things in their personal lives, would she? After all, she lied about something in her personal life.

  107. She didn’t fire the trooper, she fired his boss. Big difference HB. Try to get it straight.

  108. Oh and all the charges against the trooper are alleged. Alleged by the people who were trying to take custody away from him.

  109. Sorry? It can be explained away? That’s weak, HB.

    Bill Clinton lied about something in his personal life. Double standard much?

    My stand, HB, is that this woman is simply not qualified for the VP job — and that’s not even taking into account her various ethical problems.

  110. Z,

    If it is OK for Bill, It is OK for Sarah. YOU are the one applying the double standard.

    Shayne,
    I didn’t say she fired the trooper.

  111. Sorry, HB. I have never said it was ok for Bill Clinton to lie about his affair.

    No double standard here.

    Seriously, HB, your moral compass isn’t going a bit kooky over this Palin thing? Really?

  112. Z,

    My moral compass is pretty straight. It’s like this.

    THIS IS A SPECULATION. NONE OF THIS HAS BEEN PROVEN TO BE TRUE. IT IS ALL HYPOTHETICAL AT THIS POINT.

  113. Oh for heaven’s sake, HB.

    What’s the lie? Saying he had eggs for breakfast, when he really had toast? Or that his wife really isn’t the childrens’ mother, but their sister?

    Come up with a lie, and I’ll address it.

    Yeah, it’s all fucking speculation — but what is NOT speculation are her ethics problems — those all by themselves are enough for me.

    If the MSM isn’t doing it’s job and exposing this woman for what she is, we certainly will do so.

  114. He has never been a Muslim.

    His father was brought to this country from Kenya on a grant from the Kennedys

    He would serve his full term as Senator

    He wasn’t friends with Tony Rezko (sp?)

    He only recieved $60,000 in contributions from Rezko

    10,000 people dies in a Kansas tornado

  115. Wow, this is a really strange video on the Palin baby thing..
    http://www.opednews.com/articles/Video-Is-Bristol-Palin-Ba-by-the-web-080831-377.html

    It is a video on Sarah Palin and the guy showing photos, and news articles walking through the entire ‘story’.
    He says there have been questions swirling around the Alaska legislature for the last 4 months before the blogs even started looking at this.

    The story is that the daughter actually missed 5 months of school for “Mono”. Even a severe case of mono has you out for maybe two weeks.

  116. Fine, stick to the ethics problems then. Not the family issues, or the beauty quees BS.

  117. Well, Obama has never been a Muslim. Kinda takes the wind out of your sails on the rest of your Corsi shit, doesn’t it?

  118. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, HB, but I’m not the only one who writes for this blog.

    If you don’t like the way we do things here, you are certainly free to go back to your own blog.

  119. oh.my.god.

    Bristol looks no more pregnant that my 13 year old. She is a typical, soft, teenage girl.

    Imagine that. In one of the interviews Palin was wearing a loose fitting dark colored dress. My wife tells me that would be pretty slimming and hard to tell if she was pregnant, especially if she was not showing much. Not all women gain 80 pounds during pregnancy, especially those that are athletic.

    Sounds like grasping at straws to me.

  120. On January 24, the Obama campaign released a statement, saying, “To be clear, Senator Obama has never been a Muslim, was not raised a Muslim, and is a committed Christian who attends the United Church of Christ in Chicago.On March 14th, in a statement to The Times, the Obama campaign offered this statement to correct their previous statement, that appears to be a bold-faced lie:”Obama has never been a practicing Muslim. The statement added that as a child, Obama had spent time in the neighborhood’s Islamic center.”And, the original statement began, “To be clear …”So, in three months, Barrack’s campaign has gone from describing the U.S. presidential hopeful as never having been a Muslim and never having been raised as a Muslim to now never having been a practicing Muslim.What’s with the semantics? Statements from Obama’s campaign appear to have evolved, to say the least.”

    Ok, so he was a Muslim, just not a practicing one. Just as I am a Catholic, just not a practicing one.

  121. Zooey
    August 31, 2008 at 12:18 pm
    I don’t know if you’ve noticed, HB, but I’m not the only one who writes for this blog.

    Well, if you want to get down and roll with the pigs, I guess you don’t mind getting dirty.

  122. HB, you’re way off topic with the last one. Another one like this and you’re off into moderation!

  123. I agree with nwmuse: this baby story makes no sense if Palin is the mother.

    Another site showed the baby’s face. He was sleeping. A blogger commented that he looked Eskimo Indian….

    So, Bristol had a baby with a Native and Mom decides that people will believe the child has DS?

    There is so much wrong, and totally Republican, about this story.

    I do believe she will have to bow out, and that she has been used or paid.

    The hurricane will distract from the shortened or canceled RNC convention. Enough time for the National Enquirer or Wayne Madsen to check up on Palin.

    The other used person here is McCain. His campaign doesn’t make sense. It’s like he is just observing and biding the time, throws out any answer then changes it the next day…

    The executive order Bush signed 2 years ago states that The President may deem any event (such as a hurricane) to be a National Emergency and have the authority then to declare martial law…I believe MLaw can pre-empt elections, among many other scary things…I’m going to google it to check.

    If you are reading/responding to THIS blog, then you really wouldn’t put it past these thugs to pull this, would you?

    I’m 57 and I approve this blog entry.

  124. EV,

    Really, someone wanted me to show some lies and I did, so I am off topic.

    Or was it the one that said that “If you roll with the pigs..” pointing out that actons like that make you no better than the right wing blogs.

    I guess members of the echo chamber can go off topic, but not those that disagree. ( i.e. me and willy)

    If you want an echo chamber, by all means say so.

  125. I do have a question fo rhte medical experts or for Muse, who has a child with DS.

    How common is it for a 16 year old to have a child with DS?

  126. I was wrong to go off topic by asking you for proof of your ridiculous statements, HB.

    My bad.

    I’m going back to my homework, and will resist the temptation to go off topic again.

    I will restate this: If you don’t like it here, HB, you don’t have to hang around.

  127. hb: How common is it for a 16 year old to have a child with DS?

    Depends on who the father is. The father’s age counts, too and genetic factors within the family of either parent can contribute to the condition. Not only the mother’s age.

  128. hb, we are not in primary school here. At least you get the warning, so please just stay on topic, will you?

    On topic:

    How about another approach to the story. I keep thinking about snipergate. What if Palin just exaggerated a bit about the situation around the time of her son’s birth to show how tough she really is. No water broke, no labour pains and no drama.

    The exaggeration backfires of course.

    My interpretation only. I cannot imagine her covering up for her daughter, were not in the 19th century anymore. Neither can I imagine any woman to be so callous as to endanger her baby by going on a plane in the condition described. DS comes with a host of symptoms that require the presence of an neonatal ICU after birth, just in case. No mother who is informed about her baby’s condition would risk this.

  129. HB, your question about how common it might be for a 16 yer old to have a DS child remains above, since it is on topic.

    It appears you have answered your own question, when you could have simply given the information.

    Talk about disingenuous.

    Bye now.

  130. My hubby the doc says he thinks he remembers reading it is slightly more common with a very young age (having a DS baby). Then the odds of course go up the older you get. 1 in 1,000 for moms under 30, 1 in 105 among 40 year old mothers, and to 1 in 20 for women pregnant at age 45.
    I guess I was just lucky.. I was 29, no genetic history at all on either side. One of my son’s best friend’s (also DS) mom was in her twenty’s as well.

  131. Not disingenuous, Z, I looked up the info AFTER I asked the question. I thought maybe someone like muse would be able to readily answer it as she has more experiance with DS than I do.

    Glad you knew my intentions, though.

  132. It seems to be a common practice for those that are losing a blog battle, or who are overwhelmed with opponents, to cry “echo chamber”.

    HB, an echo chamber is a place where only one viewpoint is permitted. Both you and willy have been able to post your views extensively, therefore this is not an echo chamber. The fact that most people here disagree with your views does not make this an echo chamber. I trust you have the intelligence to see the difference and the honesty to acknowledge it.

    In point of fact, this group is probably overly tolerant, using moderation or banning only for the most consistent abusers of site policy. Staying on topic is one policy. Staying away from personal attack is another policy. The rules here are minimal and the concept is pretty straightforward.

    Staying on topic, I would like to say I don’t know the truth of the “baby affair”, but from any angle it seems to raise serious questions about ethics and/or judgment on the part of Palin and/or McCain’s campaign apparatus. I would go so far as to agree that the evidence so far is circumstantial and I am not drawing conclusions just yet. I would hope you would be equally ready to condemn potentially disturbing behavior such as endangering a child or lying about a family matter with the intent of gaining political capital.

  133. Gorn,

    Fact of the matter is, none of this story has been proven and people are jumping to conclusions. I did say earlier that if she lied, then it does bring questions of judgment. But if the lie was to protect her daughter, we need to leave it at that and let the voting public decide, while not politicizing the children more.

    As for the “rules”:

    If the rules apply to one, they apply to all. If my “off topic” posts are in moderation, so should others. Personal attacks seem to be allowed by some. It is perfectly fine to call someone you disagree with a “bully” or accuse people of being “racist” if they do not agree with your point of view. Shayne gets away with it frequently.

    As for the echo chamber: If you attack someone that has a differing POV, but commend those that toe the line, it is an echo chamber (i.e. the only VALID opinion is the one the site holds). Or moderating those with opposing views.

    Thanks for your civility.

  134. HB: “But if the lie was to protect her daughter, we need to leave it at that and let the voting public decide, while not politicizing the children more.”

    Except that one major talking point for her nomination is to play up her motherhood, her DS baby, her having found out about the DS early, and her decision to keep the pregnancy anyway. That whole story has been put on the table as a way of producing GOP “family values” political capital with the evangelical crowd. If that story is built on lies, it is not only fair game to pursue it, it is our duty.

    I’m not saying it’s fair game to drag the daughter and the baby through the mud, but it’s fair game to vilify McCain’s vetting process as well as the RNC spin.

    Would you agree with that?

  135. Yes, I would agree. It blows holes the size of a bus in McCains vetting process, McCain (not that he doesn’t have enough holes) and Palin.

    If it is a lie, call it a lie and let the public decide. If they are outraged enough, she will go bye-bye. But the lie has to be proven first, that is my point.

  136. “But the lie has to be proven first, that is my point.”

    And I agree with that as well, certainly.

    See, we could have narrowed down this thread to a half dozen posts. 🙂

  137. but it wouldn’t be as much fun 🙂

    I do still think it is grasping a straws, IMO

  138. Fact of the matter is, none of this story has been proven and people are jumping to conclusions.

    Let’s go back to the beginning, bob. Do you believe everything about her side of the story? Do you believe that she was the one who was pregnant, that she found out the new baby would have Down’s Syndrome (so she knew ahead of the birth), that her water broke but she insisted that the speech she wanted to give was too important to pass up so she spent another half-hour delivering the speech (rather than the baby), then opted to take an 8-10-hour flight to Alaska (as opposed to going to the nearest hospital), then took a 45-minute car ride to her local doctor?

    You believe every single word of that? We don’t. We find that very hard to believe, especially of someone who claims to value her family so much, that she would endanger her newborn like that.

    So, either she’s lying about the baby being hers, or she’s exercising extremely poor judgment about life-and-death matters, especially when the life and death of her (alleged) newborn baby was on the line.

    Now, if you read carefully, I did not mention her daughter once. I am only criticizing Gov Palin. This is not about whether or not her teenage daughter had a baby out of wedlock and her family helped cover it up. This is about whether or not her story of her baby’s birth can be believed, and whether or not it shows she has the good judgment to be the President of the United States.

  139. Maybe so, but I have to admit looking at the pictures where she is supposed to be 7 mos pregnant, it doesn’t show on her but it does show on her daughter who “had mono” for five months.

    If you subtract away the politics, and this was any other family, you’d have to feel some skepticism on that story.

    I haven’t yet seen any photos where Sarah looks pregnant, which is pretty amazing for a non-obese woman bearing a fifth child.

  140. For the record, when I used the word “we” above, I was not speaking for all Critters. I was only speaking for those, both here and around America, who have expressed doubt about the veracity of Gov Palin’s story. No one should interpret what I wrote as the “official policy” of this site.

  141. Gorn and Wayne,

    Does the story sound fishy? Yes.

    Gorn, sorry, I don’t think her daughter looked pregnant. She looked like every other teenage girl these days. Soft. And I have worked with women that were athletic that didn’t “look pregnant” at 7 months if they wore the right cloths.

    Wayne,

    If the “official story” is true, then yes, big questions of judgement. EV brought up an interesting theory earlier. The long and short of it is that the water breaking and long plane flight could just be embelishments to make her look “tough”.

  142. HB, if the airline stewardesses on board the commercial airplane she was flying home from Dallas to Alaska on an 8 hour flight didn’t notice her in any discomfort whatsoever (water has broken and having started experiencing labor pains) , in fact stewardesses commented how pleasant she was on that 8 hour flight, and then even commented that they didn’t notice that she was even pregnant – this on the day before she supposedly delivered, I would say that is a very strange story.
    This her 5th child.. I worked several years in the hospital. Each consecutive birth tends to go much quicker. This was a known higher risk birth. This was VERY poor judgment at the very least.

  143. She could easily pass for pregnant in the photo I saw, while the same is not true for her mom. That’s all I’m saying. I’m certainly not saying for sure she is anything other than kind of generally bulging a bit in the middle and rounded upstairs in a milky kind of way. That might well be her normal look, but I was looking at the photo expecting to dismiss the conspiracy theory and found I could not do so.

    But if somehow it’s true that Sarah was the pregnant one, as others have pointed out this raises a series of other troubling questions. Again, from any angle, there are genuine concerns here.

  144. “And I have worked with women that were athletic that didn’t “look pregnant” at 7 months if they wore the right cloths.”

    I acknowledge this is possible, but at the same time, Sarah Palin is not particularly athletic is she? And for baby #5 it does stretch the imagination a bit (sorry for the pun).

    I’m still looking for a picture from month 8 or 9 where she is clearly pregnant but haven’t seen one yet. Surely there should be some photos of the governor over that two month period, somewhere.

  145. Gorn, she had the baby 1 month early. Surely there is a picture at this speaking engagement in Dallas.. It was for the oil companies I think.. Or something to do with energy.

  146. My mother’s first child was 6 lbs 2 oz (me, full term), and the day before she delivered, another woman said she didn’t believe my mother was pregnant, and that she just had poor posture — since she only had a little poochy tummy.

    However, this was my mother’s FIRST child, and she was 6 feet tall. She showed much earlier with her subsequent pregnancies.

    This was Palin’s 5th child, and she’s way shorter than 6 feet.

  147. I thought the baby was born in May, and the picture I saw was March, hence two months. Maybe the photo was late March and the birth early May??

    I’ll look for the photo – it was on another computer…

  148. hackerbob — “IF it is infact her daughters child, then so be it. It need to stop at that. After all, families are supposed to be off limits.”

    Once again, the father’s identity is relevant, if it is being covered up for political reasons. I’m not attacking the daughter in that statment. But there’s one scenario where the identity of the father can be very relevant: incest. I don’t think there’s a social conservative out there who could stomach the thought of a mother covering up an incestuous relationship involving her own underage daughter by claiming the offspring so produced as her own. It is the social conservatives who vote “family values” which make these kinds of issues relevant, and fodder for the tabloids.

    And, once again, this goes to judgment. Palin’s judgment. If her story is true, then her judgment is questionable. If her story is false, then her judgment is questionable, and the whole sordid truth will eventually come out – after the tabloids run amok with it.

  149. I spent some time looking for a photo of Palin when she was carrying one of her other children, but I guess nothing like that exists online because she wasn’t in the public eye in those days.

    I’ve never met anyone who, at seven or eight months, wasn’t obviously pregnant. Five months, sure, that I’ve seen. I have heard of women who surprised everyone by having a baby, but they’ve always been described as enormously fat, and Palin certainly isn’t that.

  150. Then why don’t you see our point, bob? If the official story is true, then her judgement is highly questionable. And if it is not true, then not only did she lie to her constiuents (and everyone who listened), but it is possible that laws were broken.

    In neither case should she be deemed worthy of being a heartbeat away from the Oval Office.

  151. Gorn, the baby was born April 18, according to newspaper accounts.

    I wonder if there are any pics of Palin at that speech that day?

  152. Some time this morning, I believe, HB made the comment that this was “only” a blog story and that the MSM is ignoring it. I would remind him that the same could have been said about John Edwards and his affair — even after the National Enquirer busted him, no one else would touch it. None of them will, absent medical records that prove either that Palin wasn’t pregnant or that her daughter was, which is precisely why her decision to come back to her small-town Alaskan doctor seems so convenient. Who better to help cover up a child’s indiscretion than a sympathetic physician willing to play along?

  153. Iolair:
    But there’s one scenario where the identity of the father can be very relevant: incest.

    Wow, already going down that road. Why? Because they are a bunch of “rubes” as Shayne described them? That is a very bold assumption to make.

    Wayne,
    IF she did adopt the baby, that in not always a public record. So laws being broken may be a streach. The worse thing would be that she lied to her constituents. I KNOW politicians never do that. If we disqualified every politician that lied from running for office, we would have no politicians to run for office.

  154. Well, gummitch, I don’t care what “Five Heart Attacks” Cheney’s opinion is, a person running for Vice President should disclose his or her (unaltered) medical records. It is the right of Americans to know if their top two political leaders are in good health or not. On that, there can be no argument.

  155. The physician could lose his/her license to practice medicine for falsifying medical records. Plus, an entire hospital medical staff would be involved. Birth Certificates are legal documents. Falsifying them could get someone into criminal charges.

    This will likely get uglier before it gets better.

    Prediction: Palin will graciously bow out, citing the need to care for her Downs Syndrome baby take precedence over serving her country as Vice President. The announcement will come while the media obsesses with the devastation of Gustav.

  156. gummitch,

    I remember the John Edwards story. I also remember people on this site admonishing the Enquirer for spreading such lies.

  157. HB, there is a big difference between lying about something personal that is irrelevant to your campaign, and creating a lie as an intentional part of your campaign “story”. THAT is what would make this lie a campaign killer, if it turns out to be true.

    Please go back and read the original spin put on the Palin selection and how they tried to milk her motherhood story for all it’s worth (ooops, another pun).

  158. Excuse me, bob, but I think you are mistaking my comments for someone else’s. I never once mentioned adoption. The laws I was referring to possibly being broken involve insurance laws and laws about authorized spending for elected officials. Was the baby not hers but she told the insurance co0mpany it was? Things like that. Was she using government resources in the perpetuation of a fraud?

    The bottom line is this: Only an idiot would accept her story at face value without at least wanting the answers to some questions. And I put it to you that given the wll-known observations that stupid people tend to be conservative (not the other way around), and that conservative people tend to be Republicans, I’ll make the claim that she is not being honest about this but that she thinks Republicans around the country will believe her and accept her version of events without question.

  159. I remember the John Edwards story. I also remember people on this site admonishing the Enquirer for spreading such lies.

    I was probably one of them, and I’ve since admitted to being wrong (and seriously disappointed). What’s your point?

  160. John Edwards ruined his career with his deception, even though his lie was tangential to his campaign. Surely the same should be true for Palin if her story is a lie about something central to her campaign.

  161. Wayne,

    I like how you equate conservative to stupid. When you disagree, call them names.

    There have got to be some kind of hospital records, right? It would be kind of hard to fake a delivery of a baby. Insurance papers need to be filed, etc. Insurance fraud is pretty easy to uncover.

    What you are proposing is a mass conspiracy in order to further her political career. One thing about conspiracies, someone always talks.

    Ask the questions. No matter what the answer, some people will say the results were rigged.

    I think the worst thing that will come of his is that she used poor judgment in traveling with a high risk pregnancy and leaking fluid. Period.

  162. And I accepted that it was true Edwards was having the affair but doubted (and still do, unless it comes out this was also a lie) that he was the father of the baby.

    And gorn, I slightly disagree. This story may be tangential to her campaign to become vice president, but it is central to John McCain’s campaign to be president, for it shows a lack of good judgment. Either his running mate lied to cover up her daughter’s teenage pregnancy (not good for a Republican today), or she deliberately put her trying-to-be-born infant in serious jeopardy (also not good for a Republican today.)

    Either way, McCain should start looking at the person who came in second on his short list.

    Still, now that the circumstantial evidence that she was not being completely truthful is out there, she must address this. But she never will if no one in the MSM has the cojones to ask her about it.

  163. gummitch sez:
    What’s your point?

    I think Palin’s story deserves the same credit that Edwards did initially. Hell, I can’t stand Edwards and I didn’t believe the story at first.

    And yes, if she lied, I am sure her political career is done. But, like Edwards, the public should be the ones to decide that.

  164. I came across this post at another blog. It has salient points not mentioned here, so I thought I’d include it:

    Posted by Patricia @ 2:06 PM Sun, Aug 31, 2008

    Could we all wake up here and consider one basic and startling fact: Sarah Palin gave birth to a premature, high needs disabled infant four months ago, this April!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I don’t care what religion you espouse – in what moral framework would you accept and campaign for the position of vice-president of the United States with an infant like this who needs you as a mother???

    This proves once again that “pro-life” means nothing more than blasting the babe out of your womb and then saying to hell with it. I am surprised this is not being made more an issue!!!

    Palin’s other children (like Obama’s) are at an age and healthy enough that it is feasible to believe they could receive adequate care and attention without the close bond of mothering.

    But any child care professional, let along ages of cultural wisdom will confirm that a mother’s care, holding, touch etc. is vital for the health of a new born infant, especially one born premature, disabled and only four months old. Its already outrageous enough that this child has to compete for attention and care in between Palin’s governor-ship duties. Why would Palin consciously accept more, now???

    Obviously, she’s not even nursing him, holding or truly bonding with him. Obviously she’s will not be building a loving quiet and calm family matrix for him, directed by a true mothering impulse. That will be impossible jetting around the country.

    Palin touts being pro-life but what kind of life care is this??? This is extreme parental negligence. Its not like she is a single Mom who has to go out and work. Palin is making these choices.

    This has nothing to do with the family values the Republicans hypocritically espouse. The has nothing to do with the Biblical role of mother that Republican Christian conservatives supposedly champion.

    Two questions: If Sarah Palin is such a great mother why would she accept a position that would literally tear her away from what is needed for her infant son. If McCain and cohorts believe family values are important why did they choose her?

    http://trailblazersblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/08/recollections-of-palin.html

  165. I don’t think this requires a “mass conspiracy” at all. Family members and a doctor, plus some clinic staff in a small town? If Palin did call her child’s baby her own, surely she’s not the first person to pull off such a deception. It only appears difficult because she’s a public figure.

  166. Wayne, I didn’t say her pregnancy story was tangential to her campaign. I said Edwards’ lie was tangential to his.

    Quite the contrary, her pregnancy story is a central spoke in her story as presented for evangelical consumption.

    Sorry if I was less than clear on that point.

  167. “But, like Edwards, the public should be the ones to decide that.”

    Sure. Aren’t we part of the public?

  168. Wayne,

    I like how you equate conservative to stupid. When you disagree, call them names.

    Try re-reading what I wrote more carefully, bob. I never “equated conservative to stupid”. I said, and I will quote myself here (typos and all):

    And I put it to you that given the wll-known observations that stupid people tend to be conservative (not the other way around)…

    I was very careful to say that I did not believe it true that all conservative people are stupid.

    I will say up front that the vast majority of them are wrong, but I never said they were stupid. Oh, and I did say that “Only an idiot would accept her story at face value without at least wanting the answers to some questions.” I stand by that last statement.

  169. And I do agree that this is not a matter of mass conspiracy. Our good friend willy is the expert proponent on mass conspiracies. This one would be a pretty small conspiracy, as gummitch suggests.

    And as time will prove (if this is true) even small conspiracies are difficult to cover up for long.

  170. Sorry if I misunderstood, gummitch.

    Bob,

    hackerbob
    August 31, 2008 at 3:53 pm · Edit
    gummitch,

    I remember the John Edwards story. I also remember people on this site admonishing the Enquirer for spreading such lies.

    Do you mean members of The Zoo or visitors leaving comments? Can you find me an example of a Critter saying it was a lie? Make that two, since you used the word “people”.

  171. Sure. Aren’t we part of the public?

    Then how about if we wait for the FACTS to come out, then make a decision.

    Wayne,

    I never said it wasn’t questionable. But the questions should be answered with FACTS before the woman is hanged from a yard arm.

  172. I agree with Iolair’s post that even if the baby is Sarah’s, this blows a hole in the “family values” crapola espoused by the evangelical crowd.

    Does she expect this high needs child to get its mothering from a nanny, or does she plan to do the VP gig on a less than part time basis?

    Hypocrites, all.

  173. hackerbob,

    I think the worst thing that will come of his is that she used poor judgment in traveling with a high risk pregnancy and leaking fluid. Period.

    Let’s explore that alitte. First, this is her fifth child. She had been in slight labor for a while. Her water broke.

    No one noticed that the seat was wet after she got off the plane in Alaska? Add to that it was an 8 hour flight including a pit stop in Seattle. She should have been spending most of it in the bathroom. Trust me this is messy busy we are talking about.

    Then she has to be driven to a remote clinic to deliver. That adds even more time.

    That is some serious uterine fortitude, the likes most women couldn’t endure. That doesn’t include the hard labor that would have started with her water breaking. She would have been doubled over in pain on that flight.

  174. You know, bob, when you start interjecting hyperbolic statements like “before the woman is hanged from a yard arm”, you are distorting the debate. No one is suggesting that she be hung (literally). We are suggesting that her story does not seem plausible to many of us, and that we feel the onus is on her to back up her unbelievable story with evidence. Because on the face of it, it is a highly unbelievable story. And we shouldn’t just be told, “Too bad of you don’t believe me.” She could get away with that if she weren’t trying to become my vice president (and possibly my president.)

  175. Ok, so the PUBLIC should decide, but the PUBLIC should wait for the facts.

    That makes no sense in today’s world — nobody gives up shit willingly.

    Sorry HB, we are not sheep.

  176. “Then how about if we wait for the FACTS to come out, then make a decision.”

    I am doing exactly that. This does not preclude discussing the issue and digging through available information sources, does it?

    I haven’t made a decision other than this looks bad from any angle, as has been pointed out repeatedly. If coverup = true, then Palin/RNC = lying hypocrites and McCain vetting = inept. If coverup = false, then Palin = irresponsible and RNC family values proponents = hypocrites and McCain judgment = poor.

  177. Well, gorn, since you mentioned me;

    The fact is that she didn’t get off the 8 hour flight were she had been “leaking fluid” and rush straight to the hospital, no she went instead, on a road trip to a place where she had old ties from her days as a Mayor, to that much smaller facility that didn’t even have the emergency pre-natal unit as the hospital she pass on (according to the Kos story). So, If she showed up there, the ONLY few that would be in on the “conspiracy” would be, in fact the small medical staff that she and her family had known for years.

    So, not that big of a “conspiracy” (aren’t medical records still private? Is it a “conspiracy at all for medical staff not to disclose information without consent?)

  178. “Serious uterine fortitude.” That’s one way to break that glass ceiling to shards, in’nt it?

  179. Bob,

    I tried to find comments along the lines you were suggesting but I couldn’t. But forget about Edwards, for that is a red herring.

    I am saying Gov Palin is unfit to be vice president. And I base that on the fact that she either lied about who the baby’s mother really is, or because she demionstarted extremely poor judgement when the life of an unborn baby (which signaled it was ready to be born) was at stake. (And other things that have come to light.)

    Are you going to try to tell us that Gov Palin is a good choice to be vice president?

  180. Z,

    I am not going to touch the sheep statement when so many buy into the personality cult.

    FreedR,

    As I said, it sound fishy.

  181. So, willy, if I read your post correctly, you’re agreeing with me that no mass conspiracy would be required here, right?

  182. HB sez:
    I am not going to touch the sheep statement when so many buy into the personality cult.

    Way to completely avoid the meat of my comment, and your stunning lack of logic.

    Well done.

  183. bob, I’m not going to touch the “personality cult” comment because it is clearly off topic, other than to say it is an insult to people who have carefully considered the available options and found Obama/Biden to be the one of highest merit. To say “personality cult” is merely to parrot an RNC talking point and to be dismissive of the intelligence of tens of millions of people.

  184. “So, willy, if I read your post correctly, you’re agreeing with me that no mass conspiracy would be required here, right?”

    absolutely

  185. gorn,
    “Serious uterine fortitude.” That’s one way to break that glass ceiling to shards, in’nt it?

    And Palin is just the woman who thinks she can do it. The gun packing, NRA member, & moose stew champion.

    That must be way her fitness routine is of such National Importance that it was High Lighted by the WSJ today…

  186. I don’t think it’s a conspiracy at all. Even of one, because medical staff can’t disclose info without the consent of the patient, right? So by keeping quiet, they are doing what they are commanded by law to do. Especially if a legal adoption has taken place. Those records are sealed, are they not?

  187. Don’t worry about it willy. I’m sure we can find a way to get back into the mud if this conversation continues for more than a few more posts. 🙂

  188. I think we all agree more often than not. it’s just that the disagreements draw blood in most cases. gummy? I agree with Gummy? oh, jesus, don’t tell the “truthers”. They will take away my decoder ring

  189. Oh…. I am WAY ahead of you there Gorn:

    might not be a great idea to keep saying this VP’s “honesty” or lack there of should disqualify her… not when old Joe Biden is the other candidate.

    He was caught plagerizing in college once, given an “f”…

    …he scolded, with a rather elitists comment, a citizen in 1988 by telling her ““I think I have a much higher IQ than you do, I suspect. I went to law school on a full academic scholarship, the only one in my class to have a full scholarship.” and he went on to say he graduated in the “top half” of his class and that he had received three degrees…

    …when in fact he actually graduated 76th from 85, he recieved half ride based on financial need, and he recieved two, not three degrees.

    and it gets worse.

  190. I wouldn’t say Biden is perfection personified, but he clearly has a very long history in the public light and many strong credentials for the job. Neither is true of Palin.

    My understanding of the plagiarism charge is it’s much ado about nothing. I really think the Palin situation would be far more serious because it would be intentionally defrauding the electorate.

  191. Willy – it’s a conspiracy if they falsify a birth certificate. The right to privacy does not encompass the right to break the law.

  192. And, I would like to politely remind you, willy, we are discussing the possible current dishonesty of Gov Sarah Palin, not 20-year-old charges (however valid) against Sen Joe Biden. Thank you. 🙂

  193. We are talking about using the “character” and truthfullness issue in debates about Palin, and I am politely warning you that “honesty” may not be a good subject when comparing VP candidates, Wayne. Thank you. (I am Helping you)

    20 years too old? Doesn’t matter now. How about this past month?

    Biden told Tim russert on meet the Press that “everyone in the world thought he had the. The weapons inspectors said he had them.”

    That is a direct lie. Biden was Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee in 2002 when they held hearings on giving Bush the authorization to go to war. Biden was a strong proponate of the war, and those hearings lasted two days.

    Scott Ritter and MANY other weapons inspectors were Screaming that there were no WMDs, as did the National intellegence Estimate, Biden didn’t allow Ritter to testify before the Committee at the hearing. he silenced disenting voices so we could go to war.

    He lied about this less than a month ago, to further his career.

    Honesty and lying is NOT a good topic to trash the other VP candidate with.

  194. “it’s a conspiracy if they falsify a birth certificate”

    they did that? Is it up somewhere?

    (Hey, I am on your side on this one…. Hacker is saying it’s a massive conspiracy… I disagreed, and I think I pretty well proved it didn’t take any conspiracy at all. That helps you)

  195. Willy, I’d agree that the topic of this thread is not Biden. Perhaps that would be an appropriate diversion on a thread comparing and contrasting VP credentials and baggage, but let’s stick to the topic of Palin’s family values here.

  196. Willy,

    An adoption can not take place til after the baby is born.

    Here is one state’s interpretation :
    “that the time frame for filing a termination
    of parental rights petition is “not sooner than 15 days after the birth of a child”.

    Every state may have a differing statue…

  197. Maybe it was this that made me think it was within the scope of the thread to talk about other relevant political figures being brought low by lying:

    Gorn – “John Edwards ruined his career with his deception, even though his lie was tangential to his campaign. Surely the same should be true for Palin if her story is a lie about something central to her campaign.”

  198. Fair enough, willy. But in all candor, I felt that the only reason you brought it up on a thread about Gov Palin’s credibility issues was so that you could continue bashing Joe Biden. You don’t like him. We get it. Now, go convince the country of that someplace else, please. Thank you.

    I’m glad that you agree, after looking at the simple facts of the matter, that a conspiracy to keep the circumstances of the birth of the baby secret would not be too difficult in a town like Wasilla.

  199. Willy, my comment about Edwards was in response to something HB said about the Edwards affair, and note that I brought the subject back home to Palin where it belongs.

  200. Wayne;

    I would much rather it was Biden as VP than Palin or (dare I say it….eeek) Lieberman.

    “We get it. Now, go convince the country of that someplace else, please.”

    Wow, that’s really nice, there Wayne.

  201. “I would much rather it was Biden as VP than Palin or (dare I say it….eeek) Lieberman.”

    Another point where, doubtless, we are all in complete agreement.

  202. let me try this again. In a site where other dissenting opinions may exist, rethuglicans are going to start throwing around lying VP crap if you guys bring up lying VP crap. I am trying to say it may not be a great debate to have. I am trying to help. “it is interesting how you are seemingly so dead set against her lying, but….” you see how you could easily lose that one?

  203. It is a pointless waste to argue with die-hard rethuglicans in any event.

    However, there is an important distinction between Palin’s and Biden’s alleged lies, as has been pointed out multiple times. Palin’s lie is intricately built into the story the RNC is spinning about why she’s so great. You’re comparing apples to oranges, IMHO.

    Rethuglicans won’t get that, of course, but people on the fence will get it.

  204. FR

    Now see, that’s the stuff i m talking about.

    ““that the time frame for filing a termination
    of parental rights petition is “not sooner than 15 days after the birth of a child”.”

    that’s interesting. Does anyone know if any of the detail who was there in Wasilla when she had the child? I wonder if her Lawyer was in the group with her (to draw up and sign adoption papers?)?

    Could the adoption have taken place then?

    Here’s another avenue: if it is true, if that is, that the call came in that her 16 year old was in labor pre-maturely, and she had to hop the flight to get back to be there with her daughter…

    … what does it say about this woman that she stayed to deliver her speech? (someone may have addressed that)

  205. Right, willy. This one seems to smell no matter what angle you take to examine it.

  206. I would much rather it was Biden as VP than Palin or (dare I say it….eeek) Lieberman.

    Then stop complaining about him, because he’s going to be your next vice president! 🙂

    He’s not perfect, no candidate is (even Obama). And I am entirely unhappy about the Bankruptcy Bill, which I would like to see him justify truthfully. (“The credit card companies threatened to cut me off.” Something like that.)

    But that doesn’t mean I’m going to try to undercut his and Obama’s chances of winning by constantly bringing up old stuff. Hell, if I ever ran for public office (which will never happen), there’s a lot of things I did twenty or thirty years ago that I wouldn’t like to see brought up. But, as I look back on them, for the most part, they are in no way indicative of the person I am today. I wouldn’t want 20-year-old scandals ruining my chances to serve the people, so I shouldn’t let someone else’s 20-year-old scandals ruin theirs.

    If you want to talk about what he’s done lately, then fine. You caught him lying, good for you. Find more examples and document them. But don’t bring up the college scandals and the Kinnock speech silliness, because they are stories about Biden from decades ago.

    And as for scolding the woman by telling her he was smarter than her, it was probably true. My IQ is higher than about 98% of the nation. Sometimes I find it necessary to remind people of that. I don’t like to, but sometimes I have to. Maybe that woman needed to be told that. I don’t know because the entire context of the stopry is missing.

  207. Not all states have the same time frames for terminations and adoptions.

    BTW, not only the mother’s termination is required, but the father’s as well.

    Of course, those records will be sealed.

  208. OK, if 20 year old stories are no good, then I assume that no one will bring up the beauty queen days (1984)

  209. “OK, if 20 year old stories are no good, then I assume that no one will bring up the beauty queen days (1984)”

    now that was nice….

  210. Wayne,

    I find that most people that have to announce how intelligent they are pretty insecure about it. Kind of like a comedian needing to tell his audience that he is funny.

  211. “If you want to talk about what he’s done lately, then fine.”

    Oh, thank you Wayne.

    Here’s a link to him lying last month to cover his ass about his manipulation of the Senate Intellegence Hearings about the Iraq War (you know, the war that we hate McCain for wanting to continue? That current… right now…war?)

  212. We like to mention the “beauty queen days” because of the fact that McCain’s first and second wives were beauty queens, and we wondered if this was an important consideration for McCain regarding the women in his life.

    That she was a beauty queen is not meant as a knock on Palin, just on McCain.

  213. The beauty queen issue is not relevant at all.

    Some things that are relevant:

    – Does she have a firm grasp of national issues?
    – Does she have a firm grasp of international issues?
    – Does she have a demonstrated ability to perform on the national and international stage?
    – Does she have a proven track record of managing complex logistical, political, and diplomatic issues?
    – Does she have a proven track record of dealing well under high pressure, high stakes situations?
    – Is her chosen “family values” platform built on a tissue of lies?

    The above speak to her credibility as a candidate to be Commander in Chief.

    In addition, to be MY CiC, I also need to agree with her on more policy issues than I do her opponents.

    My assessment is she fails on most and possibly all of the above.

    The fact that she was a beauty queen doesn’t come into it. Not at all.

  214. I really meant on your own blog, willy. 🙂

    And, bob, I mentioned my IQ only to illustrate how an intelligent person can become frustrated with someone telling him he is not. I do not bring it up very often, because I have found that people resent me for it. (And the 98% figure comes from my qualifications to be a member of MENSA, which I was for two years.) If you prefer, I won’t mention it again. (Unless someone accuses me of being stupid. 😉 )

  215. Willy, not on this thread. This is not a thread about Biden vs Palin. It is a thread about Palin’s baby story.

  216. “of course there is no Biden thread. You wouldn’t want to cut into your candidate, would you?”

    The very nature of your question is off topic. You do realize that, right?

    Personally, I have no motivation to create a thread for dissecting Biden, however if you want to put one on your blog and invite me to participate, that would be different. Or perhaps some other Critter will make such a thread here if they’re so inclined.

    Otherwise, please be polite enough to stick to the topic at hand.

  217. And by the way, willy, it’s getting somewhat tiresome reading your swipes against TheZoo.

  218. No, this blog was started because of the troll shit at TP.

    Don’t like the policies we have here? Get gone — like you said you were doing earlier.

  219. HB, I disagree. I believe the only people who have repeatedly tried to steer this thread off course, despite requests that you cease to do so, are you and willy. Your above comment is another example.

    Topic: Palin’s baby story. Post civilly on that subject, and that subject alone, and your comment will not be moderated. It’s pretty simple, really.

  220. Nice comparisons, Muse

    Gorn,

    Your post is off topic and you are answering to something that no longer exists. And I ask you to read the posts I mentioned and tell me how they are on topic.

  221. That’s some baby bump muse. No wonder people who know her had trouble believing she was pregnant.

    You know it’s interesting that she’s against choice but to spare her daughter humiliation she pretends the infant is her’s. Well what about young girls whose family won’t do that for them, who put them out of the house. Not everybody has a mother who will adopt their offspring. And if she thinks all babies needs to be carried to term no matter what the circumstances why shouldn’t her daughter have to suffer the same embarrassment the average young girl does. Or why didn’t they adopt the baby out to strangers where the daughter would have to never see him like other young girls have to do. It seems like she wants to have her cake and eat it too.

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