End-Times Prophecies and More: How Electing Sarah Palin Endangers Your Life UPDATED

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UPDATE 10/24/08:  The New York Times did this piece exposing Palin’s religious fundamentalism. It’s about time.

What is known, however, is that Ms. Palin has had long associations with religious leaders who practice a particularly assertive and urgent brand of Pentecostalism known as “spiritual warfare.”

Its adherents believe that demonic forces can colonize specific geographic areas and individuals, and that “spiritual warriors” must “battle” them to assert God’s control, using prayer and evangelism. The movement’s fixation on demons, its aggressiveness and its leaders’ claims to exalted spiritual authority have troubled even some Pentecostal Christians.

The governor’s relationships with practitioners of spiritual warfare appear to go back many years. Mary Glazier, an Alaska Native who helped bring together the prayer warrior networks in the state, told a prayer conference in June that Ms. Palin “became a part of our prayer group out in Wasilla” when she was 24, and that “God began to speak” to her about entering politics.

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What do Sarah Palin and witches have in common? A pastor. A pastor who is a witch hunter. What does Sarah Palin have in common with the End of Times? Right, another pastor. And then what is the commonality between Sarah Palin and violent church extremists? If you guessed a pastor, you would be again be correct.

This post is part vlog, part blog. It’s long. Kick back and watch, read, learn and become terrified.

[YOUTUBE= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk4JBDzlI2Q%5D

Ok, that was an odd story. Not so scary, just different. Keith often does odd stories. Usually, though, they are not about political leaders and their witch-hunting pastors. Keith Olbermann picked up on the witch hunter aspect of Palin’s speech, but neglected to cover the most terrifying part of this particular speech. Olbermann’s guest addresses it, but it winds up being glossed over. What is so terrifying? Palin’s reference to Revelations, the Prophecy, Alaksa’s role in the prophecy and the response from the pastor. This deserves much more attention. Much, much more.

By the time you finish this entire post, you will be horrified and terrified that Sarah Palin could ever possibly ascend to the role of Vice President of the U.S. (and very possibly President of the U.S.).

First, let’s watch the entire speech Sarah Palin gave as she spoke to the Assembly of God in Wasilla, a snippet of which was shown in the Countdown clip above. The entire speech is in two parts. What was shown on Countdown is part of the second clip (below).

Palin Speaks at the Wasilla Assembly of God Church – Part 1

I highlight some of the key passages below (along with the appropriate minute marks):

2.00 I can do my part in working hard for the pipeline. Pray for the Alaska pipeline. God’s will has to be done in unifying companies and people – but none of that does any good if the people of Alaska’s hearts aren’t right with God.

3.40 Pray for our military who are doing what is right for the country. National leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God. That’s what we are praying for and that that plan is a plan is God’s plan.

4.58 What comes from this church has great destiny.

5.20 A red-headed Sasquatch (missionary) for Jesus.

6.20 Let us pray god may give to you the spirit of revelation including the spirit of prophesy. God is going to tell you what is going on and what is going to go on. Good, good things in store for the state of Alaska. Let us pray for God’s will to be done here for all of your destinies to be met in this state. We are the head not the tail and I see things in the works that are coming to fruition, percolating, coming along. Praying for the outpouring of God’s spirit for the revival to be here in Alaska

Many of the above words and phrases, whichIdisplayed in bold, are code words which any believer would be able to quickly identify. They relate to the Book of Revelations, also known as the End of Times and Armageddon.

Palin Speaks at the Wasilla Assembly of God Church – Part 2

Again, key quotes:

0.23 (Pastor from the Master’s Commission) Palin declared some things that were powerful.

1.10 Prophetic declaration that unfolds the kingdom of God. A prophetic call.

1.40 God wants to tap into as a refuge to the lower 48. I believe Alaska is one of the refuge states, come on you guys, in the last days, hundreds of thousands of people will come to Alaska to seek refuge. The church has to be ready to minister to them.

2.15 (Pastor from the Assembly of God) Father we are humble and grateful and pray for your mercy we have come to the kingdom for such a time as this. Pray for Sarah for wisdom strength, for help unity and your presence will be so real that we will say this is a God thing…this is a God thing.

Palin is then presented a diploma from the MC offering a “Big thank you from the Master’s Commission.”

This speech resulted in Palin being placed under the microscope for improperly using state funds. She billed the state for airfare, food and other expenses for this weekend return to her home town so she could deliver the speech to students graduating the Master’s Commission program at her Wasilla Assembly of God church. Both she and the Lt. Governor were publicly blessed during the event.

From Talk2Action:

Saturday, September 7, 2008, McClatchy news service story detailing possibly improper use of state travel funds by Palin for a trip she made to Wasilla, Alaska to attend, on June 8, 2008, both a Wasilla Assembly of God “Masters Commission” graduation ceremony and also a multi-church Wasilla area event known as “One Lord Sunday.” At the latter event, Palin and Alaska LT Governor Scott Parnell were publicly blessed, onstage before an estimated crowd of 6,000, through the “laying on of hands” by Wasilla Assembly of God’s Head Pastor Ed Kalnins whose sermons espouse such theological concepts as the possession of geographic territories by demonic spirits and the inter-generational transmission of family “curses”. Palin has also been blessed, or “anointed,” by an African cleric, prominent in the Third Wave movement, who has repeatedly visited the Wasilla Assembly of God and claims to have effected positive, dramatic social change in a Kenyan town by driving out a “spirit of witchcraft.”

More on that African cleric shortly, but what about this Master’s Commission? Just what is this radical, extremist religious group all about? From the Master’s Commission website:

If you couldn’t watch the above, here are the key pieces:

History:

  • The history of the Master’s Commission states, in part: Pastor Steve established a call to his young adults on the foundation of a radical pursuit of Christ and the joining of the generations to accomplish the purposes of God.

Leadership Values:

  • Leadership training is accomplished in the Master’s Commission through practicing servant hood and laying down one’s life for their friends.

Vision:

  • To see young men and women develop and pursue intimate, effective and radical relationships with God, the Father, Jesus His Son, His Holy Spirit, the generations that have gone before them and one another.
  • To see young men be men who are not afraid to lead and are violent in their pursuit of righteousness.

There are Master’s Comissions throughout the United States. This is information on the Master’s Commission of Wasilla’s website (click on Videos). It is shown below via YouTube.

The long version follows.

The Master’s Commission at Wasilla AoG is an international program that replaces college with religious training grounded in Third Wave ideas. The senior pastor, Ed Kalnins was a graduate of the Original Master’s Commission Phoenix. (Source)

Not only is The Assembly of God associated with The Master’s Commission, it is also associated with Third Wave activities and theology. In fact, three of the four churches, including the The Assembly of God, where Palin was “saved and baptized” at age 12, are affiliated with the Third Wave, a movement declared heretical by the Assemblies of God in 1949.

Talk2Actoin says:

… Ed Kalnins, and Masters Commission students have traveled to South Carolina to participate in a “prophetic conference” at Morningstar Ministries, one of the major ministries of the Third Wave movement. Becky Fischer was a pastor at Morningstar prior to being featured in the movie “Jesus Camp.” The head of prophecy at Morningstar, Steve Thompson, is currently scheduled to do a prophecy seminar at the Wasilla Assembly of God. Other major leaders in the movement have also traveled to Wasilla to visit and speak at the church.

If you haven’t seen Jesus Camp or are unfamiliar with it, watch the following videos:

Ok, what about this Third Wave?

Rodney Howard-Browne is recognized worldwide as the source of Holy Laughter anointing to revivals around the globe. He has become a central figure in the Third Wave, also known as the New Apostolic Reformation, and is credited with bringing Holy Laughter to the Toronto Airport Blessing and the Lakeland Outpouring. Howard-Browne is also a long time associate of Mike Rose, senior pastor of Juneau Christian Center, formerly the Bethel Assembly of God. Mike Rose has been the Alaska State Legislature Chaplain since 1994 and has espoused Christian nationalist sentiments since that date, when he offered the following prayer, May 5, 1994 on the AK Senate floor:

“Our society’s rejection of Biblical principles and truth has placed our country in spiritual and moral jeopardy. Our need for revival and renewal is great, but you said in Your word, ‘If my people who are called by my name shall humble themselves and pray, and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sins, and will heal their land.’ ” (Source)

What is Holy Laughter, you ask?

Ooooo-k.

Everything noted above is associated with Palin’s church. Also associated with this church is the pastor referred to in the Countdown video that started off this post; (now a) Bishop Thomas Muthee, who is returning to the Wasilla Assembly of God in this month.

Muthee Returning to AoG in Wasilla
Muthee Returning to AoG in Wasilla

Thomas Muthee visited Wasilla Assembly of God and gave 10 consecutive sermons at the church, from October 11-16 2005. As both Palin and Wasilla AoG Head Pastor Ed Kalnins have attested, Thomas Muthee ‘prayed over’ Sarah Palin and entreated God to “make a way” prior to Palin’s successful bid for the Alaska governorship. Muthee made a return visit to the Wasilla Assembly of God in late 2008. (Source)

Vodpod videos no longer available.

Bishop Muthee started his church when God spoke to him.

The church begun in 1989 February, in Kiambu town as Word of Faith Church. This was after nine concrete months of prayers and fasting by Bishop Thomas Muthee and his late wife Margaret Muthee. God spoke to them when they were living in Scotland to come and begin ministry work in Kenya.

Also from Muthee’s church site:

Our Vision: Touching lives for total community transformation thereby taking cities and nations.

Projects: Over the years the Word of Faith ministries has endeavored to spread the Gospel of Christ through out Kenya. In order to realize a holistic approach, WOF has embarked on various projects that will affect the generations with the gospel, through disciplining, training and equipping per excellence.

From the Times Online:

The pastor speaks of his offensive against a demonic presence in the town in a trailer for the evangelical video “Transformations”, made by Sentinel Group, a Christian research and information agency.

“We prayed, we fasted, the Lord showed us a spirit of witchcraft resting over the place,” Pastor Muthee says.

UPDATED: The following video shows a sharp contrast between the genteel Bishop Muthee of the Transformations video above and the man advocating violence below.

UPDATED AGAIN: Here you can see Muthee praying over Palin, including praying that Palin be spared of witchcraft and to campaign in the name of Jesus.

Again, we have a church figure who Palin readily identifies with and values calling for violence. I ask you how this would be accepted should this be someone that had a passing acquaintance with Obama, yet this is someone who Palin speaks fondly of.

Transformations cited four cities they transformed. In reality, many things went into the “transformations” which took place. Here is a detailed analysis. I did check the statistics of Hemet, California and crime is up in almost every category. Here are the crime statistics for 2003 and 2006. Cali, Columbia seems to be following that trend, too. This from a local Columbian discussion group regarding the safety of Cali for women traveling there.

BUT everyone knows that while crime in BOG(ATA)/MED(ELLIN) DECLINE the past several years, CALI took the opposit [sic] trend and crime went UP.

Perhaps the resident witches have been driven out, this is difficult to quantify, but the rest of the claims do not seem to hold water.

Sarah Palin believes that America was founded on Christian principles and that our Founding Fathers used Under God in the Pledge of Allegiance. That phrase was not added to the Pledge until 1954. Here is a video of grade school students reciting the original Pledge of Allegiance.

In fact, it has long been established that America was NOT founded on Christian principles. In fact, it was unanimously agreed upon in a Senate vote in 1797 – one of four such Senate votes.

“The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.” – Treaty of Tripoli, by unanimous Senate vote in 1797

Let us look at what the Founding Fathers said about religion:

Benjamin Franklin:

“The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.” Benjamin Franklin Poor Richard’s Almanack, 1758

“He (the Rev. Mr. Whitefield) used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard.”

“I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.”

“Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their [not our?] religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society.” George Washington Letter to Sir Edward Newenham, (Note that Washington wrote “their” instead of “our” above.)

John Adams:

“The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.” John Adams

“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” John Adams, Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

“But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.” John Adams, letters to family and other leaders 1735-1826

Thomas Jefferson:

“Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites.” Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia

“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

James Madison:

“In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.”

“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.” James Madison, April 1, 1774

And then there is Abraham Lincoln:

“My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures have become clearer and stronger with advancing years, and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them.” Lincoln in a letter to Judge J.S. Wakefield, after the death of Willie Lincoln

And from a female American hero, Susan B. Anthony:

“The religious persecution of the ages has been done under what was claimed to be the command of God.” Rufus K. Noyes, Views of Religion, quoted from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.” Susan B. Anthony, a Biography, 1988

Between End-Times prophecies, witch-hunting bishops who bless Palin unconditionally, without knowing her personally, only her church, to her ignorance of what this nation was and was not founded upon, and her desire to engage in more wars, including Russia, is this the person you want a heartbeat away from becoming the President of the United States of America?

More to see, this and this.

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76 thoughts on “End-Times Prophecies and More: How Electing Sarah Palin Endangers Your Life UPDATED

  1. This is an incredibly important post and it needs to be widely read.

    Many people are rightly concerned about Sarah Palin’s general lack of qualifications to be Vice President or President, as well as troubling signs about her temperament, honesty, and ethical standards.

    However, all that aside, the information contained here is orders of magnitude more important than any other factor. She is associated with, and apparently an honest and devoted believer in, a violent, delusional fringe theology.

    Should Sarah Palin become Vice President, and should John McCain die, a Palin presidency would represent a clear and present danger to the United States and to the entire world. We dare not even entertain the risk of putting the world’s most devastatingly powerful military technology in the control of a devotee of a militant “End Times” philosophy. We cannot endure the possibility of Sarah Palin as Commander in Chief of a force that can destroy whole cities, whole regions, and entire populations.

    Is this an overreaction? Possibly. Is she enough of a true believer in this theology to use her power to help usher in the Tribulation? Possibly not. Certainly her supporters would guffaw at the notion and dismiss it out of hand. She is fiercely pro-life and says “God” a lot, and in the short-sighted view of her more mainstream supporters, that’s what they will lock in on, and dismiss the rest as over-reaction.

    But when the stakes are this high, and the delusions this grand in scale – no less than the continuation of civilization as we know it in the United States and planet Earth, we can’t take the risk on “possibly” and “possibly not”, nor even “probably” and “probably not”. We must be 100% certain.

    If Sarah Palin does not publicly and convincingly denounce the theology associated with her church, the delusions of demonic dominions and angelic warriors, the Third Wave, the Master’s Commission, the Holy Laughter, Paster Muthee, and the Alaskan Independence Movement, she must be instantly disqualified from further consideration for the most powerful post on Earth.

  2. This is a powerful and comprehensive post. Well done. I’m going to add you to my blogroll and check back often. I wish I would have discovered your blog sooner. Please check mine out if you have time: http://votejacked.com

    I do have some discomfort with this becoming a major campaign theme for a number of reasons: (1) people who are receptive to this message are more likely to already be voting for Obama; (2) it reminds folks who may be undecided to think about Obama’s pastor problem again; (3) we aren’t supposed to have any religious tests for office, and often I’d rather if this sort of thing was out of bounds in a political campaign, but the counter argument that people have a right to know what informs their leaders decision making trumps my constitutional sensitivity; (4) every day spent on this kind of an attack is a day Obama should be hammering Bush/McCain on the economy and on corruption.

    I love the collection of quotes. I’ll have to try a vlog sometime for myself.

  3. Well, Gorn, these are definitely NOT the theists I want in charge. In my denomination, we figured God would take care of the Big Curtain Call Himself. In fact, it seems to me that the primary message of Revelation(tho many get portions of their eschatology elsewhere) is “However bad things get, don’t concern yourselves with it. It’s out of your hands anyway.” These folks want to try to do it for themselves on their schedule, using human military might.

    Not the sort we want making foreign policy. Or being in control of nuclear weapons.

    Call me crazy…

  4. One can learn a lot by simple observation. Look again at the video of the Wassilla Church. What is the central focus on the stage? Is it the cross, as one might expect in a Christian church?

    No. It is a drumset.

    A drumset, on a stage. Not a pulpit, a stage.

    Think about it.

  5. I was struck by the laughing pastor saying, “This is what church is supposed to be like” . . . followed by the sound of someone doing chimp sounds over the laughter. I’m sure that Jesus of Nazareth would be more than a little confused.

  6. These are very scary people. What we’ve been shown by the corporate media doesn’t begin to address what these people are all about. And who would have thought so much of it is based in Wasilla.

  7. A recent Letter to the Editor:

    Religion and politicsIn our younger years it was the big bad wolf, the “giant” greeting Jack at the bean stalk and a variety of ogres that brought fear to our psyches. Today, a term that seems to scare much of adult America is “evangelical.”

    This is especially true when discussing the role of religion in politics.

    In this election cycle, the campaigns of both Barack Obama and John McCain have made major efforts to understand and reach out to “evangelicals.”

    Last month, a leading evangelical pastor and author, Rick Warren, hosted these two presidential candidates at his church for a nationally televised interview.

    Most recently, Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin was selected as John McCain’s running mate, in part, because of her appeal to evangelical Christians and social conservatives.

    This last occurrence seems to have frightened many in the media and secular community. The idea of a religious-conservative government has them in an uproar.

    According to a recent survey, the rap against “evangelicals” is that they cause the political conversation to be conservative (57 percent), that they spend too much time complaining (57 percent) and that they are two-issue voters (abortion and homosexuality) (55 percent). Roughly two out of every five non-evangelicals (42 percent) believe that evangelicals will not approach the election with an open mind.

    There is no doubt that the evangelical voting bloc has significant influence in the world of politics. But who is your average evangelical and, secondly, are they a single like-minded group?

    One of the jokes that evangelicals like to tell is that you know you’re an evangelical if liberals think you’re a fundamentalist and if fundamentalists think you’re a liberal. There is something of that middle ground character to evangelicalism.

    Most people equate “evangelical” with being a fundamentalist and member of the religious right.

    I think there is a fear among many Americans about the words “evangelical” and “evangelicals,” because they associate these terms with the late Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and the now-defunct Christian Coalition.

    This is a shame, because I don’t think that these Christian leaders are really in the evangelical tradition. They are American fundamentalists who espouse a rigid religious and aggressive confrontational stance that doesn’t have much to do with biblical faith and with evangelicalism.

    The evangelical Christian embodies four characteristics:

    (1) A very strong belief in the Bible as the primary religious authority.

    (2) A commitment to the practice of witnessing to their community, so that people need to be changed in a Christian direction as a basis for participation in the life of God.

    (3) Activism, especially a willingness to tell other people about the message of salvation in Jesus Christ.

    (4) A special assessment of the work of Christ on the cross.

    The death and resurrection of Christ is the heart of the Christian faith for the evangelical.

    People tend to think of “evangelicals” as a single united group. They believe them to be all conservative Republicans.

    Actually, there are actually two types of political evangelicals. There are conservative evangelicals and a group that we call “freestyle evangelicals” and this second grouping often vote for the Democrat.

    Theologically, these “freestyle evangelicals” share a lot with their evangelical brethren. They have the Bible as a central part of their life. They have a personal relationship with God.

    But politically, they’re different.

    They care more about things like environmental issues and poverty issues. They tend to be politically more moderate. In 1996, Bill Clinton won the majority of freestyle evangelicals but in 2000, George Bush won the majority of them.

    There is a perception that “evangelicals” would like to turn the United States into a theocratic state. This is so far from the truth that it is hard to imagine anyone really believing this calumny.

    Evangelicals believe in the absolute separation of church and state. But we don’t believe in the separation of public life from our values, our basic values, and for many of us, our religious values.

    One of them for me, personally, is a deep concern about overcoming poverty. That is a religious value for me, not just a political one.

    In point of fact, being an “evangelical” challenges the current assumption about western political values that, “Well, religion is private. Politics is public. And never the twain shall meet.”

    So by our speaking out on the political landscape, evangelicals are challenging the biases of western political foundation and this is disconcerting to many secularists.

    So, despite the hullabaloo in the media, Sarah Palin is not the big bad wolf or bogeywoman that many make her out to be.
    You need not agree with her politics or even vote for her, but you must admit that she is no less a concerned citizen than any other voter. She is governed in her life by what Hebrew National calls “a higher authority” and it is this evangelical commitment to life’s everyday issues that makes her the person she is.

    Who’s afraid of the big bad evangelical? Surely, it is not you.

  8. Rodney Howard-Browne makes me think of Jim Jones, and seeing the people lying on the floor of that church was disturbingly similar to the Jim Jones mass suicide and murders.

    Amazing and informative post, MizzJ.

    Thank you.

  9. I understand the difference between fundamentalist and evangelical. I attended evangelical churches for a number of years.

    This is something very different. Almost cult-like. It is distorted and it is extreme. This must be considered because I can’t imagine how these beliefs and emphasis on the end times would not influence policy decisions. This is not just being interested in end times, these people are planning for it and actually wanting to participate in it. Does that mean that Palin as president might make decision to possibly hasten it or bring it about because she is looking through the lense of her particular religious beliefs and emphasis?

    In the midst of those end-times beliefs, Israel and surrounding countries play a very big role. You are kidding yourself if you think for a second her extreme end-times beliefs and focus would not influence her decisions with foreign policy in that part of the world and the role this country would play.

    This reminds me of the video with Max Blumenthal (only on steroids):
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/rapture-ready-the-unauth_b_57826.html?view=print

    This is not rational. This is dangerous territory.

  10. Great post, MsJoanne!

    Out of curiosity, I wonder what her religion says should be done with adulterers? Do they have a Leviticus-style punishment for that, especially when it is the wife who is unfaithful to the husband? Just curious.

    I support their right to practice the religion of their choice in their private lives, but I strongly object to anyone who lets his or her faith be their guiding principle when governing. It would be, for all intents and purposes, an establishment of Religion.

  11. If you watch the one clip about the Master’s Commission, where it talks about vision, it specifically addresses women and purity.

    I have to wonder what they think about her daughter.

    The hypocrisy is stunning. It’s alright if you buy into the bullshit…same with Republicans. Everything is OK if it is THEY doing it. Just don’t find that anyone else has done it for then it is an abomination.

    I wonder what they ALL have to say about LIES. I am a little rusty on my religion, but isn’t there a COMMANDMENT about giving false witness or something? Doesn’t that mean LYING?

    I tell you, after researching this post, I found myself getting more and more terrified.

    I hope everyone reading it is as frightened as I. We need to resoundly trounce the GOP once and for all.

  12. Great post MsJ and all….If all this make’s you nervious imagine how a witch feel’s…No one with a match allowed thank you very much and I’m keeping huge bottle’s of water on hand…..Blessings

  13. I wonder what they ALL have to say about LIES. I am a little rusty on my religion, but isn’t there a COMMANDMENT about giving false witness or something? Doesn’t that mean LYING?

    Yes. Yes there is.

    Al Franken borrowed from it for the title of his book. Be said that God told him to call the book, “Bearers of False Witness and the False Witness They Bear”. Al said, “I’ll work on it.” 😉

  14. Hi MsJoanne – excellent post!
    BTW there is an article on Salon.com with a statement from a pastor of a more mainstream church in Wasilla who says that Palin told him she believes Jesus will come to earth in her lifetime:
    http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/09/15/bess/print.html

    The Miami Herald reports: “And back in June, Palin nodded in agreement when her former pastor said Alaska should be ready to minister to nonbelievers at the end of the world.
    ‘I believe Alaska is one of the `refuge states’ — come on, you guys — in the Last Days,” said Pastor Ed Kalnin, who joined Palin on stage after she gave a speech. “And hundreds of thousands of people are going to come to this state to seek refuge. And the church has to be ready to minister to them.” From http://www.miamiherald.com/news/top-stories/story/684750.html

    There is no doubt she believes she is on a mission from God to directly participate in the End Times. With her being so close to the Vice Presidency, and Presidency really, she could self-fulfill the prophecy of the end of times by initiating nuclear armageddon. She has a very strong motivation for this. It truly is terrifying.

  15. Thank’s Wayne, I should of put a snark at the end of my post..LOL..I’m not scared really..I’m well armed..BTW, all you folk’s that own cat’s, dog’s or have broom’s in your kitchen and any kind of birth mark or mole’s on your bodie’s would be lumped into the witch group…I have all the above plus all the neighbor’s critter’s viset my twice a day bufett…

    Wonder what type of inquisitioner’s this bunch of crazie’s will hire if they get in office…..Keep you gun’s cleaned and your powder dry youngster’s..I’ll catch up with ya on the flip side….Blessings

  16. Hi Votejacked.

    I’d like to comment on a couple of your points. They are well taken, but worthy of some further discussion.

    “I do have some discomfort with this becoming a major campaign theme for a number of reasons: (1) people who are receptive to this message are more likely to already be voting for Obama;”

    Maybe, but consider that there are a lot independent voters who consider themselves somewhat libertarian who are naturally suspect of Democrats from a “big government” point of view. Many will vote Republican on that basis. They need to understand the frightening possibilities of the Palin vision of government intervention.

    “(2) it reminds folks who may be undecided to think about Obama’s pastor problem again;”

    I think that’s a comparison that Obama wins, overall. He may have attended a church with a somewhat distasteful pastor, but (a) unlike Palin with her pastor, Obama is on record of denouncing Rev. Wright’s political viewpoints, (b) unlike Palin, Obama is not on film going on stage and promoting a crazy theological agenda, (c) Reverend Wright’s agenda is political not theological, thus perhaps a bit disturbing but not threatening and frightening, and (d) unlike Palin, Obama has never given any hint that his governing would ever be anything but a conventional secular approach.

    “(3) we aren’t supposed to have any religious tests for office, and often I’d rather if this sort of thing was out of bounds in a political campaign”

    In an ideal world, I’d agree. However, the “we” in the above sentence refers to our government, not individuals. Individually, we have every right to use whatever filters we please in making choices. The evangelical crowd which has dominated political discourse for many years is not shy about using their own filters, and while I am diametrically opposed to their agenda, it is their Constitutional right to pursue it.

    It is our Constitutional right, and our duty to humanity, to not put into power someone with the Palin’s delusional apocolyptic belief system combined with a lack of sufficient track record to have any confidence that she won’t assiduously separate her irrational convictions from her public decision making. This is particularly true in an environment where the Bush administration has eroded Constitutional safeguards and made the Executive branch even more all powerful and answerable to none.

  17. Iolair, from the letter you quoted in your comment:

    “So, despite the hullabaloo in the media, Sarah Palin is not the big bad wolf or bogeywoman that many make her out to be.”

    Wow, I don’t see how that conclusion flows from the premises in the letter.

    Bottom line, I couldn’t care less about someone’s religious beliefs one way or another. Call them fundamentalist, evangelical, or whatever you want. Provided that our government is operated fully on a secular basis rather than a theological basis, I don’t care about the religious beliefs of elected officials.

    We have certain inalienable rights. That means they can’t be taken away, not even if your religion tells you to take them away. All people need to be treated fairly and equally under the law. That includes women, blacks, gays, and, yes, even Muslims and (shudder) non-believers. We all have the right to make our own choices provided that we don’t harm the rights of others (the legal version of the Golden Rule). These and other rules take precedence over any theological belief system and they must be protected and preserved at all costs.

    Elected officials must hold to that high standard, even if it means repudiating their religious convictions on the public stage, otherwise they have no business being in charge. If you don’t like the Constitution you will be asked to swear to uphold and defend, or if you believe the Constitution to be secondary to your scriptures, then don’t run for office in the first place. Run for pastor instead.

  18. Never fear.

    The president will be appointed, not elected, as in the past two elections.

    BTW-

    Christians do not, NOT, go about trying to force bible scripture to be fulfilled.

    If someone tries to force some scripture to be fulfilled,
    t means they do not think God can do it,
    therefore are not Christians.

  19. batguano101,
    You’re trying to apply logic to the illogical. These people think THEY are the instruments of God, and their delusions of grandeur allow them to believe it!

  20. Gorn, you’re great when you’re not gorging yourself at the buffet! 😉

    We all have the right to make our own choices provided that we don’t harm the rights of others (the legal version of the Golden Rule).

    And the witch’s crede:

    An’ harm none, do as ye will.

  21. Questions Sarah Palin should be asked:

    “Gov Palin, do you beleive that America is divinely ordained by God?”

    after the obvious answer…

    “Do you beleive in the literal interpretation of the Bible?”

    and then..

    “Then shouldn’t America implement Biblically ordained polices in order to hasten the return of Jesus?”

    What’s the difference between Sarah Palin and the Ayatollah Khomeini?

    – One wears lipstick

  22. Well, batguano, I hear what you’re saying, but I’ve spent a lot of time over the years speaking with all flavors of Christians, and the one thing they all have in common is that “so and so is not a real Christian”, said with mutually pointed fingers.

    I guarantee you that these wingnuts consider themselves to be the real Christians while others are not. Catholics consider themselves real Christians while others are not. Mormons consider themselves real Christians while others are not. Branch Davidians consider(ed) themselves real Christians while others are not.

    Is there any term less meaningful? Perhaps the term “God” is less meaningful, but not by much. It is an almost totally fluid term. It means exactly what your flavor of indoctrination told you that it means.

    I would say there are a very few items that are a commonality among almost all Christians, such as:

    – Jesus existed and died on a cross
    – His dead corpse reanimated
    – His reanimated corpse floated up into space (“heaven”)

    This short list alone is enough to disqualify me as a Christian because I find the second and third points immediately absurd regardless of any subsequent theological positions about what Jesus “meant” when he said this or he did that. But most self-described Christians at least agree to this short list.

    Beyond that core set of beliefs, I think there is not that much that can be said to be agreed by all Christians. Some believe he was god in the flesh. Some believe he is part of some kind of “trinity”, an entity where 1 = 3. Some believe he meant what he said about the OT being followed, while others believe his intent was to no longer make the OT required. Some believe in angels and a whole rich pantheon of demigods, others don’t believe that, or believe in a totally different set of such beings. Some believe worshiping his image is wrong, while others openly worship crosses and all sorts of images. Some believe you can get into heaven by deeds, others by faith alone. This list is endless.

    There are over 1500 sects just in the US. Yikes! They can’t all be the one true variant, can they? I started compiling a list of what different sects identified as the requirements for being a true Christian, and it made head spin. I gave up.

    Here’s one site with a good overview of some of the issues.

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_true.htm

    In the end, though, I do think that the majority of self-described Christians would agree that the End Times theology espoused by Palin and her church is “fringe”, and should not in any way be an influence to how our shared government operates.

  23. Actually, Iolair, my great (x9) grandmother was one of the “witches” at Salem. Alas, if I only had her broom and potions…

  24. Actually, gorn, while I agree with almost everything you said above, I think that #2 is very possible…consider why people lie in state. At one time, people thought other people were dead if they went into a deep coma or some such, and others mourned for them to either bury them dead or have them miraculously awaken.

    Is my understanding of the purpose of lying in state incorrect?

    Other than that, I’m with ya. 🙂

  25. TbT: “What’s the difference between Sarah Palin and the Ayatollah Khomeini? – One wears lipstick”

    Excellent! 😀

  26. MsJ, I grant you it’s possible for a body to appear dead, to not really be dead, and then to come back to life. But in this case, the reanimation is illusory. It is not a true resurrection of a truly dead body. If that were the case with Jesus (which may well be true), then there is nothing supernatural about the event at all. I’m ok with that possible explanation, but for Christians it is an article of faith that there was a true, legitimate supernatural resurrection of a truly dead body. That falls into the absurd category for me.

  27. Well Gorn, it was supposed to be Mahmoud Ahmadinnerjacket…. but I thought he was getting a bit of a bad rap (“rule #1, no pooftas” notwithstanding).

    On fundie Christians – they think that *everyone* who has not been *born again in Christ* is going to hell…. Catholics, Episcopalians, Presbies, the lot…

    And you know if you are going to hell, first you are proselytized, then you get pitied by them, then you legislated against, then persecuted…. we all know where that ends….

    Is Amurka ever going to be ready for an atheist-American as president again?

  28. TbT, seems like it should have been Osama bin Laden, but your choice serves well enough.

    As for hell, to me being stuck in a room full of banshees like Sarah Palin, for all eternity, sounds like hell to me. If that’s heaven, I’ll take the other place. I’ll be down there with Jefferson, Einstein, Spinoza, Sagan, and a whole bunch of other cool people.

  29. Hey man, don’t you think you’re being a little deceptive here? First you give a chain of associations from SP to a bunch of crazies, then you bookend it with footage of Palin that we’ve already seen. This would make FOX News blush, really.

    Incidentally, while “holy laughter” is made to sound fairly maniacal and creepy here, fundamentalist Christianity is hardly the only religion to embrace it. (It’s become something of a hit in Hinduism, if I’m not mistaken). The fundies know a good idea when they see one.

    Note that Mormons have similar beliefs regarding Utah.

    Look, I certainly support Obama/Biden and think that Sarah Palin is a titanic liar or airhead (not sure which) but the only thing I can really take away from this little screed of yours is this:

    1. A frank discussion of the role of religion in public life is long overdue.

    2. We continue to elect politicians who profess sincere faith (in various forms) and plenty of Democrats (including former President Jimmy Carter) do maintain that the Bible is the literal word of God. Why shouldn’t one’s ontological perspective influence his or her decisions? Doesn’t Sam Harris have a point when he says that “beliefs are actions waiting to happen”?

  30. Hey man, don’t you think you’re being a little deceptive here? First you give a chain of associations from SP to a bunch of crazies, then you bookend it with footage of Palin that we’ve already seen. This would make FOX News blush, really.

    I don’t have any idea what you are talking about. What bookend? Huh?

  31. “We continue to elect politicians who profess sincere faith”

    Unfortunately, in the US it seems to be a requirement for them to do so, regardless of just how sincere that faith is.

    In any case, the only problem comes into play when one allows one’s scripture to trump the Constitution.

    The Constitution, and laws derived from it, is the law of the land. Not the 10 Commandments, not Revelations, not any religious text. A basic requirement for the job of President is to uphold the Constitution regardless of whether it conflicts with your particular “faith doctrine”.

    I feel that’s a pretty straightforward view.

  32. “First you give a chain of associations from SP to a bunch of crazies, then you bookend it with footage of Palin that we’ve already seen.”

    You lost me on this. She openly identifies with this “bunch of crazies”, and the above post documents that fact using actual video footage.

    If this is a mischaracterization of how she really thinks and believes, she should be asked to state so explicitly and publicly, just as Obama publicly denounced Rev. Wright (even though there was never any evidence at all that he shared Wright’s controversial views in the first place).

    “This would make FOX News blush, really.”

    Please explain. Fox plays “guilt by association” without any supporting evidence. In the case of Palin, she has associated herself with the guilty, and the evidence seems plain enough.

  33. Haha ha! This is so funny. It is ridiculous!

    You extremist liberals keep grasping at straws trying to destroy Governor Sarah Palin. I have news for you. It’s not working.

    Your hostility toward Christians is not going to work either.

    Ha, ha.

  34. Pingback: Palin and her crazy Christians–a must read « Pop Politicos

  35. What does Obama’s name really mean?

    Barack Hussein Obama’s means:
    Barack/baraq/barak/barach: meaning: A glitterning sword or, barach/barak meaning: to kneel, and bless God, and in the vice versa (the man), by euphemism, to curse God, or the King by treason; to blaspheme. Which also represents the serpent and the Constellation by that name. His birthday August 4th – Sign Leo

    Hussein: meaning a Lion

    Obama/Obamah: meaning the eye of Baal!!

    http://www.officialbhuldahcompany.com/theoriginalgreekhebrew.htm

  36. Interesting letter to the editor that Iolair shared. It had some interesting things to say.

    Til that last bit.

    It’s almost as if the last few paragraphs were written by a different person. After that very nuanced description of the range of ideas found under the umbrella of “evangelicalism”, we’re supposed to see that Palin is harmless. Wha-HUNH?! What kind of bait-and-switch crap was THAT?!

    The letter writer forgot to mention that the dominion theology espoused by Palin’s cohorts is technically deemed heresy in the Assemblies of God (though I’m given to understand that it’s sorta winked at). So Palin is not in the mainstream even of her denom. Does the writer really think Sarah Palin is an old-school “evangelical” moderate??

    Evangelicals, as I mentioned in another post, arose partially as a reaction to Fundamentalism and its darned-near amoral obsession with points of doctrine. It was meant to be a response that emphasized personal witness and testimony, hence “evangelical” from Grk. “eu-angelos”, “good news”. Now they seem to be the New Fundamentalists, though I’m getting the impression that there’s a sort of “neo-evangelical” reaction afoot.

    Shorter seraph: Palin is no evangelical, no moderate and DEFINITELY something to worry about. She is, in fact, an exemplary reason why I’m pretty cool with that whole “church/state” divide.

  37. Zooey, facts have a liberal bend and liberals are evil, ergo facts are evil.

    Right-wing thinking in a nutshell.

    Besides, life is so much easier if you don’t have to worry about things such as cognitive dissonance.

    What absolutely kills me is that the proof is right on these organizations sites: Violence. Radicalism. They say it, they list it proudly on their websites. THEY OWN IT!

    And yet if we bring it to the surface, we are wrong in doing so.

    It is sad how the brainwashing of this society has brought us to the point where so many people simply cannot think.

  38. Seraph, I think it is with more than a wink and a nod since it was considered heresy since 1949 yet her church is still affiliated.

    I honestly do not see how a fundamentalist can be good, and I don’t care what religion they are affiliated with. If you want to die for 72 virgins or for Jesus to return – and you facilitate the death process (for you and others), someone tell me the difference.

    Don’t fundamentalists on both side KNOW that their side is the RIGHT and ONLY religion?

  39. MsJoanne,

    I don’t get how someone whose religion says that God’s only Son died for our sins, can be so freakin’ enthusiastic about Apocalypse.

    Well, yes I can. Christians have felt marginalized for a long time. Some decided “Hey. It’s been that way for a long time. Keep believing, doing good, and preaching the Word. That’s all you can be responsible for.”

    The others snapped, went batshit crazy and decided it’s time for some payback.

    It’s about time for the former group to loudly denounce the latter. Before they all wind up in straightjackets.

  40. slmo7 and asenath1az, thanks so much for providing examples of the kind of thinking out there that requires our vigilance. Reasonable believers and non-believers alike need to work together against irrational hate.

  41. seraph127, I’m with you in the spirit of your comment, my friend, but the sarcastic part of me insists that I respond to this sentence:

    “Christians have felt marginalized for a long time.”

    I guess that comes from dominating western civilization for over 1500 years, right?

  42. I wasn’t going to wade into this discussion but I found this and felt compelled to comment.

    In the op-ed, the author is talking about the very same “is Obama a Muslim?” and “what does Obama’s name REALLY mean?” canards that have been mentioned in the comments to this very thread.

    The author then goes on to say that…

    “In conservative Christian circles and on Christian radio stations, there are even widespread theories that Mr. Obama just may be the Antichrist. Seriously.”

    And from Ms. J’s post…

    “… Ed Kalnins, and Masters Commission students have traveled to South Carolina to participate in a “prophetic conference” at Morningstar Ministries…”

    Morningstar…where oh where have I heard THAT name before?

    Oh yeah, I remember that Morningstar is another name for Lucifer.

    So, my question to Gov. Palin is “Project much?”

    I know, I know. She’s got that icky R after her name. It’s genetic.

    BTW – the Morningstar Ministries mentioned in the above post has a very interesting history indeed. Link

  43. Neoke, thanks for the link. This is from the Wikipedia entry:

    The purpose of his ministry is the biblical mandate of Matthew 24:45–46 as well as a commitment to equip future leaders and work in relationship with current leaders to prepare and strengthen the church for the last days.

  44. Pingback: Sarah Palin’s End-Time Prophecies & Projects to Nowhere « Otherworld Lounge

  45. gorn said:”Reasonable believers and non-believers alike need to work together against irrational hate.”

    Now THAT’S what I’m talkin’ about.

  46. Maybe we can read their palms and then some tea leaves, too, ok? After that, we’ll look at the lines on their tongues and the jam between their toes.

    You have got to be fucking joking.

    Spare me the astrological bullshit, ok?

  47. This discussion is not about the vp-

    It is antichristian, with evolution not as a science but a religion.

    The same people who hate Christians worship the religion of evolution which is not science, just a relgion that says there is no God, you are gods.

    No sweat, your choice.

    But the rantings about a vp candidate for being a Christian are nonsense, because Christians do not attempt to implement or cause to happen events of scripture, none do, not one.

    The issue here is the worship of evolution trying to make it a political issue scare tactic attacking Christianity.

  48. batguano,

    What in hell are you babbling about? I don’t believe the word “evolution” is mentioned anywhere in this thread. And nobody said anything about “hating Christians”, so please spare us the “pity me the poor persecuted Christian” crap.

    If you want to debate evolution and the idiotic premise that it is a religion, I will be happy to flay your sorry ass in public. However, that is not the topic of this particular thread. Stay on topic.

    “Christians do not attempt to implement or cause to happen events of scripture, none do, not one.”

    This is true only if you define “Christian” as someone who does not do this. That is circular.

    The fact of the matter is that there are people who call themselves Christian who will tell you they are only too happy to help usher in the End Times, or to fight and kill in the name of their Jesus. For example, did you not view the Jesus Camp video, where the adults are quite explicit in stating that their intent on indoctrinating the children is to duplicate the militance they believe taught to Muslim children? Because, as the woman said, “We have TRUTH”.

    “They’re taking kids to camps, like we take our kids to Bible camps, and they’re putting hand grenades in their hands, they’re teaching them how to put on bomb belts, they’re teaching them how to use rifles, they’re teaching them how to use machine guns. It’s no wonder with that kind of intense training and descipling that those young people are ready to kill themselves for the cause of Islam.”

    “I want to see young people as committed to the cause of Jesus Christ as the young people are to the cause of Islam. I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the gospel as they are over in Pakistan and Israel and Palistine and all those other places because we have, [smirk] excuse me, but we have The Truth.”

    If that doesn’t chill your blood, you’re as sick as they are.

    “trying to make it a political issue scare tactic attacking Christianity”

    Nevermind if you consider these people Christians. Who really cares how they are labeled? The real question is: Do you or do you not find their ideas scary, and do you or do you not want to see government policy reflect that kind of thinking?

    Run this exercise: play the videos above, and every time one of them says “Jesus”, replace it with “Muhammed” and every time they say “God” or “Lord” replace it with “Allah”.

    Then, tell me you feel exactly the same way on this issue. Tell me you would be happy to see one of them as President of the United States.

  49. @gorn-

    Reading comprehension a problem for you?

    “End-Times Prophecies and More: How Electing Sarah Palin Endangers Your Life UPDATED”

    Hey hoss, antichrist is antichrist, and that is the argument here not the candidate or the party or the issues.

    You must be a Red State Plant trying to drive Christians from the Democrats.

    And yes, antichrist blather trying to demonize Christians is a religion, uses evolution here, and evolution religion is not science.

    You may not be able to read well, but you promote a religion here now, while slinging remarks about Christians.

    carry on sport, but do try to learn to read the title of the post-

    End-Times Prophecies and More: How Electing Sarah Palin Endangers Your Life UPDATED

    The AntiChrist Politics of False Flag dirty tricks.

  50. Can we define some terms here? Just what do we mean by evolution? Is it the idea that genetic variation exists and that selection pressures act through time upon these variants or is it more that people/monkey shit that is freaking you out?

  51. I’d like to throw in the definition of “religion” while we’re defining terms. My dictionary (which is a very handy source of reference material to have) defines religion as:

    A set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances and often having a moral code for the conduct of human affairs.

    batguano, your statement :
    “It is antichristian, with evolution not as a science but a religion.

    The same people who hate Christians worship the religion of evolution which is not science, just a relgion that says there is no God, you are gods.”

    has no basis in fact. Evolution is not, and cannot be considered, a “religion”. It posits no deities or “superhuman agencies” to explain anything. And those who believe in it do not practice any kinds of rituals or observances (other than to Scientific Method). Nor does it contain any “code of conduct for moral affairs”.

    As for being “anti-Christian”, that is nonsense. It is more the case that Christianity is “anti-Evolution”. And besides, why should the Creation Myth of Chrisitianity be any more valid than the Creation Myths of other cultures and religions? You do know that there are other stories of how the universe was created, and that they pre-date Christianity.

  52. Wayne-

    You post the definition, yet fail to see evolution today is precisely a religion, having long since left the realm of science.

    You who worship evolution have a set of beliefs how the universe and man were created- evolution.

    The supreme being of the religion of evolution is self, you, who created yourself, rather than God, through evolution.

    The set of moral standards is- anything that pleases me, “every thing is relative”.

    Take the positioning of the individual as god, the worship of self and anything that pleases me, with the ritual of worship degrading and “demonizing” Christians together and you have the basis of satanism.

    The worship of evolution is a thin veil with the same core beliefs as the illuminati, luciferians, and satanist, all off shoots of the worship of satan as the supreme being, which is the worship of self and pleasure of self.

    Every time you spout hate under the guise of your religion, every time you vilify Christians, you are in fact acting out a religious doctrine, engaged in a religious ritual, the worship of evolution, which has the same core doctrine and ultimate goal of universal worship of satan.

    Yes you are worhshipping evolution, not practicing science in any way, and yes what you are doing here is a religious ritual.

    You have the God Almighty given right to do this, but why lie to yourself in the process, or degrade science in your self deceptions of your worship?

    Worship who you wish, practice your religion as you will, but drop the pretense it is science, which it is not, rather a religion, subset of the source of the doctrine.

  53. batguano,

    Beyond this lengthy comment, I will not allow you to further hijack this important thread with your attempt to change the subject. However, I will let your above comments stand because they represent elegant examples of just why batshit (!!) crazy religious nuts pose a danger to the world: they dumb down discourse, subvert logic, ignore critical thinking, and make ignorance not only acceptable, but a goal.

    I have no reason to believe you will ever read through the following butt-kicking, or even skim it, with an open mind. Having debated people with your worldview many times in the past, I am sadly confident that this discussion will make no impact on you at all. However, for posterity of whomever might trip over this thread in the future, and who might not know enough to recognize guano when they see it on their computer screen, I will not let it stand unopposed.

    Let’s dissect.

    You post the definition, yet fail to see evolution today is precisely a religion, having long since left the realm of science.

    No, he doesn’t fail to see that evolution is a religion. Only if it were a religion would it be possible for him to fail to see it. What he fails to see is why you don’t comprehend the meaning of the words you are discussing. Given that you clearly don’t understand either the definition of “religion” or the concepts of evolutionary science, you are in no position to render judgment on the views of others on these subjects.

    I studied religion in college and I have a degree in biology. At least one other person on this thread is an educated expert in evolutionary biology, and Wayne has more intellect in his toenail than you have in your entire body, judging from what you’ve posted so far. Do you have any qualifications of any kind on these subjects? I didn’t think so.

    You who worship evolution have a set of beliefs how the universe and man were created- evolution.

    One does not “worship” by acknowleging an understanding of reality as supported by comprehensive multi-disciplinary repeatable evidence, so your comment makes no sense. It is also factually incorrect, because evolution says nothing at all about either the creation of the universe or the origin of life. It only deals with the emergence of new forms in the context of an already extant universe and an already initiated environment of life.

    The supreme being of the religion of evolution is self, you, who created yourself, rather than God, through evolution.

    Again, this babble makes no sense. Nowhere does evolution suggest that we created ourselves. In an evolutionary view, there is no such thing as a “supreme” species. We are not supreme, but merely one species in an awesomely large and beautiful web of life, past, present, and yet to be.

    “There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” – Charles Darwin

    Obviously you know nothing of the subject, substituting wild and paranoid conjecture for facts and knowledge.

    The set of moral standards is- anything that pleases me, “every thing is relative”.

    Biological evolution does not weigh in on our moral standards in any direct fashion, although there are cogent arguments about how moral standards can evolve in sentient beings where social cooperation increases group viability. In short, the Golden Rule is a completely logical behavior to have evolved, notably without any need to appeal to supernatural entities. I recognize that this makes you uncomfortable, but if logic and reason makes you antsy, that’s too bad. In science, we don’t invent facts to make us feel more comfortable.

    Take the positioning of the individual as god,

    As a false statement of the scientific world view, this is merely an inflamatory strawman.

    the worship of self and anything that pleases me,

    See above.

    with the ritual of worship degrading and “demonizing” Christians

    Again, see above. A careful reading of this discussion (and I understand that careful reading may well be beyond your skill set) shows that nobody here has demonized Christians in any general sense. What we have done is expressed our exasperation, fear, and disgust at a subset of Christians (hopefully a small one) that have a militant, violent, and particularly delusional theology, which is on the precipice of achieving ultimate power in our government.

    Our position on this, as expressed in this thread, should bother you only if you are one of the very people we are talking about. So long as Christians or other religious groups do not try to subvert the Constitution of the United States with their own theological agenda, then I have no problem with them at all. I have stated this, and clearly, many times.

    together and you have the basis of satanism.

    Satanism, the worship of your demon-god, is an impossibility for someone who does not share your religious beliefs. In my case, I have no religious beliefs of any kind, so to suggest I am a satanist is beyond absurd. I would no more worship your demon-god than I would worship your sky-fairy.

    My beliefs about creative forces underlying the universe are closer to those held by Spinoza, Einstein, and the bulk of the “Founding Fathers”, in the sense that whatever form such forces might take, they bear absolutely no resemblance to the mythological creatures that you worship. As such, I cannot possibly believe in the existence of satan much less worship such a myth.

    The worship of evolution is a thin veil with the same core beliefs as the illuminati, luciferians, and satanist, all off shoots of the worship of satan as the supreme being,

    Wrong, delusional, and paranoid: you hit the trifecta.

    which is the worship of self and pleasure of self.

    This is telling also. You know absolutely nothing about me, my behavior, or my values, yet you are so pompous as to draw conclusions about me on the basis of whether or not I bow to your personal mythology. This is a fabulous example of why separation of church and state is so critical, and why we can never allow supernatural scriptures to subvert the true basis of our country – the Constitution.

    Every time you spout hate

    Nobody here has spouted any hate, except perhaps you. With this as the premise setting up your sentence, the subsequent conclusions cannot be anything but false. Let’s see:

    under the guise of your religion,

    False. I have no religion.

    every time you vilify Christians,

    False. I have not vilified Christians. I have only tried to raise awareness of militant religious fanatacism that endangers our way of life.

    you are in fact acting out a religious doctrine,

    False. Religion involves a superhuman agency, devotion, and ritual. None of this applies. Either you don’t understand the term, or you are watering down the definition so much that it becomes meaningless.

    engaged in a religious ritual,

    False. I engage in no rituals approaching “religious” other than perhaps watching my football team every week.

    the worship of evolution,

    False and nonsensical. Do you worship gravity? Electro-magnetism? A light bulb? One cannot “worship” such things – facts of nature or inanimate objects. Worship requires bowing to some concept of a sentient entity, which is why you insist on creating a god in your image – ironically a form of self-worship (but I’ll bet you never considered that, did you??). Worshiping a fact makes no sense, unless you are changing the meaning of worship. Again, you are creating your own definitions. I have seen this odd behavior often among religious apologists – they can’t defend their belief system on its own turf, so they either try to cast it as non-religious (e.g., Genesis is science) or cast the opposing view as religious (e.g., evolution is religion), or both. It’s a sign of just how intellectually weak the position is. See: “Intelligent Design”.

    which has the same core doctrine and ultimate goal of universal worship of satan.

    Meaningless correlation. Science has the ultimate goal of becoming more complete in its evidence-supported description of the world around us. That is all. I do not think that is a goal in common with either satanism or yahwehism, but again this shows your total lack of understanding of the subject upon which you presume to pontificate.

    Yes you are worhshipping evolution, not practicing science in any way, and yes what you are doing here is a religious ritual.

    Once again, changing the meaning of terminology to suit your agenda. What you have said has no supportable meaning. It’s tough to argue with something that is inherently nonsensical. You clearly don’t understand evolution or science, or the actions of scientists, or, apparently, the meaning of “religious ritual”.

    You have the God Almighty given right to do this, but why lie to yourself in the process, or degrade science in your self deceptions of your worship?
    Worship who you wish, practice your religion as you will, but drop the pretense it is science, which it is not, rather a religion, subset of the source of the doctrine.

    See above. More of the same drivel.

    Okay, I’m sorry to everyone for having wasted screen space in dissecting this trash. Be assured it won’t happen again, but I figured it was at least worthwhile once because, again, it’s such a great example of just what we need to fear in a potential Palin administration: the systemic dissemination of this kind of warped, content-free, intellect-hating rhetoric, and the inevitable danger it represents to civilization.

    It is the Christianity-derived version of the thinking process that produced the Taliban, and I for one will not stand by and let it happen in the United States without a fight.

  54. I am still just trying to find out if batguano agrees that genetic variation exists which is acted upon by selection pressures and that species are not fixed nor where they all created at basically the same time. So the catholic church acknowledges the forces of evolutionary changes but I am suppose to be influenced by somehow batguano is way more informed?

  55. Wow. TOTAL diversion.

    This was never about evolutionary theory v. Christianity or …whatever.

    This was about a pugnacious liar and vindictive politician, provably inept in domestic and foreign policy matters, endorsing men who claim to be able to identify witches and who then run said persons out of town. Which gives a spine-chilling new twist to the Republican politics of slander and derision these last 7 years. This is about a Vice-Presidential aspirant who allies herself with persons who believe they will form an apocalyptic army who will conquer the world by force to pave the way for the Second Coming (so much for “Christians do not attempt to implement or cause to happen events of scripture, none do, not one”). And so much for hypocritical admonitions about reading comprehension.

    Ya know what? I’m willing to admit I have my doubts about the origin of species. But what in the Nine Hells does that have to do with anything from the original post? Is this how it’s going to be? McPalin can get away with any outrage because every time we try to pin it down, some troll comes along, waves some red flag in our face, and takes our eye off the ball (as well as causing us to shamelessly mix metaphors)?

    Don’t go for it.

  56. What I find particularly interesting about the first video is her praise for a “bold” pastor who, instead of asking God what His Will was for her, told God what His Will for her should be. It seems like Pastor Muthee is a little confused about how the relationship between ourselves and God is supposed to work. We’re His servants, not the other way around. His attitude is typical of the modern right-wing evangelical Christian, who rises from his exhortative prayer confident in the knowledge that God will do what he’s told him to. One man’s boldness is another man’s arrogance.

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