Cafferty: Why is it that the more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support torture?

Here are some of the answers that were e-mailed to Cafferty’s Blog:

Alex from Florida writes:

Pastors need to teach their congregations that supporting a conservative ticket based on some values like marriage and/or abortion does not mean you have to support the parts of the platform that don’t jive with those values.

Jim from Chicago writes:

Jack, the Evangelicals support torture because by and large they have bought into the Bush-era malarkey that “enhanced interrogation” is not really torture. Through their lack of critical thinking and questioning of the validity of this premise, they somehow feel that these techniques are necessary and effective for our safety. How ironic that Jesus was only subjected to “enhanced interrogation” by Roman soldiers just before he was crucified.

Kathy writes:

All I can figure out is that church goers do not apparently read the Bible and know little about the actual teachings of Christ. They seem to be real big believers in the Old Testament and “an eye for an eye”. How they claim to be “Born Again” when they don’t follow Jesus message of peace and forgiveness I cannot understand. No way would Christ have ever been a Republican, too selfish and unforgiving.

Keith Cameron writes:

If evangelicals want to continue their act of being better-than-thou, it’s about time they showed some views that actually qualified them as being “good” people. Harsh, I know, but seriously, if you’re going to claim to take a stand on morals, the most basic morals on the planet are “love others, even your enemies” and “be the bigger person.” Both apply to this situation.

Diana writes:

The Crusades. The Inquisition. The Salem Witch Trials. Christians have been killing in God’s name for 2000 years. Torture is an improvement. For them.

Sharon writes:

So-called “Christians” should be reflecting God’s mercy, as Jesus did. His two key commandments were to love God and to love each other. Somehow the message has been lost among many of the “churched. ” I think this is mostly due to mixing church and politics. It’s hard to be on the side of George Bush and Jesus at the same time.

52 thoughts on “Cafferty: Why is it that the more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support torture?

  1. The day comes when an organized Christian sect actually follows what Jesus taught, I might give them a listen.

    Until then, I wish they would keep their mythology to themselves.

  2. medjhiesco Says:

    The day comes when an organized Christian sect actually follows what Jesus taught, I might give them a listen.

    Until then, I wish they would keep their mythology to themselves.

    Do you do your best to treat other people the way you would like them to treat you? Does your conscience bother you on those rare times when you have to admit that you did not behave that way?

    If the answer to both of these questions is “Yes,” then you do not need a religion. You’re going to be alright without it.

  3. My guess is that this is the reason that they all wear crucifixes around their necks. They believe that Jesus had to be tortured to the point of death so that they could be born again and saved.

  4. I’d argue it is because frequent church-goers have a psychological need to follow orders from an authority.

    This would explain why they prefer to have the Bible read to them and explained for them, rather than doing it for themselves.

    The huge irony is that the security that they seek in religious canon actually engenders not comfort, but fear–of the anything that doesn’t conform to the model of the world that they have allowed to be constructed for them and to which they have submitted.

    Hence “following orders” is not a ‘sin’, it is a basic tenet of religious devotion.

    Humanity is viewed as essentially corrupt at inception–Adam and Eve– and thus appeals to “humanity”, absent God’s direct and present judgment, are just manifestations of that inherent corruption.

    If ‘God’ made all things then he made ‘evil’ too. If he made Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden, he also made the persuasive snake that got them banished from God’s supposedly good graces.

    And BTW God said “If you eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, you will surely die”( according to the King James version ) but Adam and Eve did not die, nor did ‘God’ kill them in retribution.

    Ergo God was wrong, or God was lying, and his creations (Adam and Eve and the walking talking snake) were imperfect.

    Ergo ‘God’ was/is imperfect–but rather than admit to that, ‘God’ cast out his imperfect creations in a cosmological snit!

    All the ‘evidence’ of the scriptures and all the actual evidence of experience tells most of us that ‘God’ is pure fantasy.
    But there are enough people who permit enough of the fantasy, through complacency, to enable those who adamantly subscribe to the fantasy to survive and thrive.

    Why, if the Pope is “God’s representative on Earth” does he ride around in bullet-proof car surrounded by security guards? Doesn’t he have ‘God’s’ invisible and mighty protection?

    Why is the Pope chosen after lengthy debate? Why doesn’t ‘God’ just tell everyone who HE wants–end of fucking story?

    Why are there Cahtolics and Baptists and Presbyterians and Calvinists and Lutherans, and Protestants etc. and why are there different orders even within the Catholic faith–the Sistertians and the Benedictines and so on?

    Because they are all MAKING-IT UP!

    And if you present these morons with the facts of their own practices and texts, they always fall back on “God moves in mysterious ways”–the argument of a 4-year old; “Because!

    .

    .

  5. “Why is it that the more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support torture?”

    Because the “Church” has been perverted. It no longer serves the spirit, but manunkind.

  6. Wayne, when I was about 14 yrs old I discovered the flip side version of the Golden Rule. Until then I had been a bit leery of the original because it assumes that one should be doing unto. I prefered the ‘Do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you.’

    After that I chucked the Catholic Church and went on a long search for anything that helped explain the ways of the world. I eventually discovered that much of what Jesus had in his core was pretty solid. And that organized Christian churches pretty much ignored most of it. Too bad for them.

    5th hits it pretty well. It is a political organization that uses fear to control.

  7. Think about this: Christianity is the last major religion to require a human sacrifice, and Christians, on a regular basis, practice symbolic cannibalism.

    That may explain a lot.

  8. BnF,

    In reading The Holey Babble it is blindingly obvious to me that “Christianity” was actually a repudiation of ‘Yahweh-ism’ if one can call it that.

    The Old Testament ‘God’ spent most of ‘His’ time threatening and smiting his own creations (humankind) and encouraging the Tribe of Jacob/Israel to cheat their way into riches and to murder their way into “the Promised Land”.

    Jesus offered up a more diplomatic approach to human relations and suggested that peaceful virtue was its own reward, and that actions should be driven by empathetic consideration of fellow humans rather than through fear of a vengeful ‘God’ and/or his promises of earthly advantages as long as his orders were followed.

    Leviticus describes every particular of the ‘official’ temple of worship, the duties of the clergy and congregants and the precise details of the rituals.
    And straight-away money enters into the supposedly spiritual process—if you don’t have some livestock you can sacrifice to ‘God’, then money is an acceptable substitute.

    Jesus taught that where “two or three are gathered together in my name” that made a congregation—no temple and no officials necessary!
    Jesus famously tossed out the money-lenders that were based at the temples. If they weren’t the priests themselves, they were surely operating there with permission, and probably a cut of the business for the priests.

    When Roman Catholics began to establish monasteries throughout Europe they were originally intended as spiritual retreats, devoid of the earthly distractions and luxuries of the Holy Roman Empire, so that their acolytes might know ‘God’ all the better through the humble example of Jesus.
    But it seems as word got around regarding the monks spiritual purity, the laity began to flock to them looking for blessings and favors from those so obviously closest to ‘God’.
    Peasants would offer livestock and produce, Lords would buy themselves prayers and graves as close to the altars as possible. Protected from local taxation and theft the monks had the stability, the money and the education not just to provide for themselves but to sell the excess fruits of their labors.

    Monasteries turned into significant businesses on average in just a decade or two after their founding, and the acquisition of “holy relics” attracted more money and prestige.
    Monasteries and Abbeys became dominant economic engines in their respective locales and unencumbered by taxes their wealth grew exponentially.

    Economic power equals political power. There are but a handful of Christian sects who can fairly reasonably call themselves “Christian”—the Amish come to mind–but the majority are ‘Old Testament’ to the core.

  9. 5th,

    Nice post, 5th. A couple of observations on the Bible, and the stories contained therein. (I like ending sentences with the word “therein”, because it reminds me of the Bugs Bunny cartoon where he asks someone, “Could you direct me to the Coachella Valley and the annual Carrot Festival therein?”) I checked my Gideons Bible (don’t worry, it was stolen) and it also says that Adam and Eve were told they would die if they ate the fruit of that specific tree. Was God engaging in his own fear mongering?

    Also, the God described in the Bible could not be omniscient. He had to ask Adam why he and Eve were hiding their nakedness, and he had to draw out of them the fact that they ate the forbidden fruit. In other words, he didn’t know already (or know while it was happening.)

    Why would a God that could supposedly see all and know all have to ask questions? At that point in time, I believe there were two people on Earth. Was that too many to keep track of? Never mind that after killing his brother Abel, Cain went out and found an unnamed wife. As Spencer Tracy said in the movie “Inherit the Wind”, “Now where the hell did she come from?” There was never any mention of other people being created after Adam and Eve. Yet, Christians accept this story as virtually akin to recorded history (though no one could read or write then, so the story would have to been passed down orally, but that’s another issue.)

    I can accept that a Religion (of any kind) can provide a set of social customs for us to live by. But the motivation of Christian religions to follow those rules is the fear of eternal hellfire and damnation. Not a fear of what may happen to you on Earth, but of what will happen after you’re dead. They had already made up a bunch of nonsense about Heaven and how its streets are paved with gold (because they knew nothing of platinum, a much more valuable metal today), so they had to deny that to people who broke the rules. But instead of simply denying rule breakers “eternal life” (which a lot of people would just accept as the natural course of things), they had to motivate people to follow the rules, so they made up a ridiculous consequence for breaking the rules – Hell. People were not permitted to accept that when they’re dead, they’re dead. They had to be given a reason to fear dying under less than noble circumstances.

    Remember all those posts I’ve made (here and at TP) about how Republicans campaign on fear? It’s the same sort of motivation that they’re applying. Only instead of saying we’ll go to Hell if we don’t vote Republicans, they do their best to imply that if Liberals win, we will all be in Hell. Seriously, how stupid do they think everyone is?

    Republicans like to think of themselves (and may have even promoted themselves as) the “Party of God”. Well, that name has already been taken. By Hezbollah (which translates to “Party of God”.)

    • I think it is called apocalyticism. What better way to create order in society than to threaten their very souls if they step out of line..

  10. I agree with you about “true Christians”.

    I do respect the Amish in their desire to be faithful people, and at least they haven’t compromised on that in three hundred years. I just wonder why people would want to live like that.

    I understand that some people believe technology to be inherently evil. (I disagree.) But I sometimes wonder just where the Amish draw the line. I know they won’t use anything electrical in their own lives, but they have obviously adopted some rules to adapt to the fact that the rest of us do use technology. I guess the idea is to stay true to themselves. I know that they also allow the young men (I don’t know if the young women are permitted this) the chance to go out and “sow their oats”, to live among the non-Amish for a time, to see if they prefer that way of life or the one they’ve managed to maintain for centuries.

    I wonder if the religious right would vote for a candidate who grew up Amish, but who converted to some other form of Christianity as an adult?

  11. I’ll have some thoughts on that in a few moments, muse, but first I must attend to “an urgent personal matter.” And it might take me a while to type it all out. So don’t think I’m abandoning you (and I know that we won’t be seeing you for a while. It won’t be the same 😦 )

  12. Fear has been the major tool for controlling populations for a very long time. Muse, I think you are right, that it is called apocalyticism, which is sort of ironic. The Christian religion has co opted it to mean ‘the end of the world’. Just as they used various nonChristian mythology and holidays to sneak their way into power.

    The entomology of the word means to reveal or unveil. As in revealing all the shenanigans, dirty tricks and lies they have been hammering into people so they won’t or can’t think for themselves.

    They keep calling for the end of the world and even though it just never seems to fit their beliefs, they keep right on believing. The thing is, if you go looking for something, odds are you will find it but if you just go looking, you never know what you might find. That is what the church is terrified of, what really is out there that they can’t control.

  13. Wayne, nice post yourself!

    It is amazing how the Holey Babble falls apart so very, very, very early on.
    Indeed I think the rot begins with the creation of Heaven(s) and Earth; apparently the ‘firmament’ is actually underwater, not in the sky or somewhere else.
    And their’s no mention of Satan until the New Testament, and when does Hell finally show-up? All the way at the end, isn’t it?

  14. Medjhiesco: The entomology of the word means to reveal or unveil.

    LOL… Insects on the brain? I think you mean etymology.

  15. nwmuse, why won’t we be seeing you for some time? ( as Wayne said). For how long will we not be seeing you?

    • Hi 5thstate. We are at the end of our huge construction project (an addition of an apartment to our existing house for my son with Down Syndrome). We are at a point where we have to leave for a few days because nobody can be in the house. We come home briefly and then are leaving on a 4 day trip we had planned some time ago. When we get home it should finally be pretty much completed so that we can move him in.
      This has been a long haul. I can’t believe we are almost done.. I am just so tired of having so many people here working every day, all day. It’ll be worth it though.

          • I grew up in ‘evangelical’ churches through to my adult life. They were all good experiences, but it always bothered me so much how inclusive they were as long as you excepted their idea and teachings on “eternal life” and how to obtain it, and if you didn’t, you were lost. That applied to ALL other religions of the world. Theirs was the ONLY way to heaven. Obviously, that meant ALL others were destined for hell and eternal damnation.
            I couldn’t envision a loving God that would create billions of people only to cast them into fire for all eternity because they didn’t agree with evangelicals. I happen to believe God is real. My reasons are my own. I also believe God can have many names and faces.

            It is funny to me to see so many churches under the “Christian” umbrella all fighting each other about who is right, and who is wrong now. I had a relative who was a “Pentecostal”. I remember her visiting once and telling us in the heat of an argument that if we didn’t “speak in tongues” we would go to hell.. At my younger age, that one made me sweat bullets, because I couldn’t figure out how to do it..

            I have finally decided I can hold on to believing in God without needing to participate in organized religion. Let them battle it out..
            I think the biggest benefit of churches is the sense of community. That part is good.

  16. I can appreciate the hell of major construction.
    Here’s something to give you a chuckle—a ‘Bulgarian Idol’ contestant.
    Pay attention to the subtitles!

  17. Muse,

    It comes down to knowledge – who has it and who doesn’t. We’ve heard the old saying “Knowledge is power,” and like many old sayings, it’s based on a kernel of truth, perhaps more than a “kernel.”

    We humans have always had a problem with too much illiteracy. Back in the old days (ancient times), it was usually only members of the clergy who were able to read and write. They alone could tell you what the “Holy Words” said, and they alone could tell you what God wanted and didn’t want. So the priests became very powerful. Even kings knew they shouldn’t mess with the priesthood because they might tell God you were a bad person. So the old saying certainly was true in ancient times.

    Things changed when Johann Gutenberg came along and printed his now-famous Bible. Until then, Bibles had been written out by hand, and because few people could read and write, few people actually had their own copies of the Bible. Now with the invention of movable type, mass production of Bibles was even easier and soon more people had their own copies. And as people began to read their own copies of the Bible, they came to understand that the things the priests said were in the Bible weren’t always to be found there. This, I believe, was the beginnings of the Enlightenment, and it was the beginning of the end for the Divine Right of Kings. (That’s just as I understand it, and I could be wrong.)

    Some people began to do their own critical thinking and questioning of authority, and some of them even went on to found new nations (such as the United States of America). Still others refused to think critically and accepted what they were told. Personally, I think that the people who, when confronted with the evidence that they were not being told the truth by their religious leaders, chose to believe what they were told rather than their own lying eyes, developed an inheritable mental illness that eventually led to today’s Conservatism. (That’s just IMHO.)

    But the key to advancement as a species has always been knowledge. Which tree was it that Adam and Even ate from? The Tree of Knowledge. God had proclaimed a death penalty for gaining knowledge though, as 5th pointed out above, he didn’t carry out. Why not? What better way to avoid what happened afterward than to kill Adam and Eve on the spot, bury them next to the Tree of Knowledge, and let their graves serve as a warning to the next humans God created not to seek Knowledge? Do Christians not understand this? Do they not understand that the God they worship does not want them to seek knowledge? Why did Oral Roberts, Jerry Falwell, and Bob Jones found Christian universities, when God made seeking knowledge a capital offense? Are truly religious Christians incapable of seeing the inherent contradiction in that?

    • Wayne, I understood so much better about what the bible was all about after reading those two books by Bart Ehrman (“Misquoting Jesus“, and “Jesus, Interrupted“). I had never taken the time to understand where the bible actually came from and how it evolved (clearly not faxed down from heaven), when it was written, written by whom, how copies were made and distributed, which books were included and which were not (and why), etc.. Excellent books, excellent writing, fascinating reading. I couldn’t put them down and I learned a lot.

      Here’s what Wiki says about Bart Ehrman:

      Bart D. Ehrman is an American New Testament scholar and textual critic of early Christianity. He is the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor and Chair of the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He has written about how the original New Testament texts were frequently altered by scribes for a variety of reasons, and argues that these alterations affect the interpretation of the texts.
      Ehrman writes about the early Christians, using the term “proto-orthodox” to describe the Christian traditions that would later be defined as orthodox. He describes first- and second-century Christians as not yet having a unified, orthodox tradition.
      As a textual critic, Ehrman examines various versions of a text in order to determine what the text originally said. For instance, various ancient manuscripts have different endings for the gospel of Mark (see Mark 16). Ehrman concludes that the text originally ended at verse 16:9 and that none of the endings were original. One method Ehrman uses for helping him analyze text is to look for changes that favor the agenda of the scribes who copied the texts. If one version of a New Testament text makes the the gospels seem more similar, downplays the role of women, softens statements that are hard to take, or opposes beliefs outside the proto-orthodox sphere, Ehrman says that such versions are more likely to represent deliberate changes on the part of scribes and not to be original.

      The rest of the Wiki page was also very interesting.
      I just finished “Jesus, Interrupted”. It is amazing how much contradicts itself in the New Testament.

      And as far as the story of Adam and Eve, I do remember from religious education classes, that story wasn’t meant to be taken literally. Like an allegory… Of course, it’s not what they teach in Sunday School.. 😉

  18. 5th,

    Though you can’t see it, it also embedded on the dashboard comments page. I was looking to see if you just put the URL link there or did you format it as youtube=”” inside square brackets. Instead, there’s an embedded video right there in the comments page. Interesting.

    Did you just post the http:… part, or did you post it as youtube=”” inside sq brackets?

  19. Wayne…

    But wait, there’s more! 😀

    “A little learning is a dangerous thing” There are two interpretations of that.

    One is that incomplete knowledge can be dangerous, and the other is that a little learning can lead to a lot of learning and thus lead to a challenging of those who claim learning and knowledge as their exclusive power.

  20. Wayne, I just cut and pasted the link straight from YouTube.

    It looked like an ordinary link, but when I hit submit, it turned into the video on the page. .

  21. Even more fun, muse, is reading the ‘lost books’. The ones that didn’t make the cut at Nicaea. The one where Constantine, who decided to conquer Rome after seeing Jesus in the sky, called the church boys together and basically said, gimme a book to consolidate my power.

    No pressure there.

  22. muse,

    Trent Lott famously ended his political career by enthusiastically saying that if segregationist Strom Thurmond had been elected president, “We wouldn’t have had all of these problems we have today.” Well, I say that if people had understood the stories in the Bible to be allegorical, we wouldn’t have had all these problems we have today.

    I believe that most people who profess to be Christians do not know the history of their religion. They know nothing of he Nicene Creed (a university’s thoughts can be found here, and the official Catholic Church’s can be found here.) I learned something just now that I never knew before: that Arians are, officially, heretics. Interesting. I wonder why white supremacists believe their deeds are sanctioned by God? (It centers around Arius’ belief that since Jesus was the Son of God, he must be separate from and could not be “one and the same” as God. The Council of Nicea decided differently. They also decided then that Jesus was divine.)

    American Christians (and by that, I man the hard core ones who always vote for Republicans) need to learn that the tenets of their faith were not always the same, and that there was an agreement among humans about what the true meaning of the Religion would be. And that there is disagreement over what Jesus actually said. And, while I am an atheist, I think it’s only fitting to phrase it this way, but for the Love of God, I wish they would understand that the contradictions in their religion are not attributable to the Mysteries of the Divine but to mere Man’s desire to control people’s lives.

    I don’t think it should surprise anyone that I oppose organized religion. I, personally, do not believe there are such things as “gods”. I do believe that it is possible that there are sentient beings out there in the universe capable of manipulating matter and energy in a way that Earthlings would describe as “god-like” and, therefore, must be the actions of a god. But if they are out there, I do not believe that they did all the things that the God of the Bible did (such as create the planet and all the life on it, etc.) I could even accept that human life on this planet was created by these powerful aliens. But I do not believe that anything described in the Bible (or any other religious text) had anything to do with it.

    And if I’m wrong about the whole thing, I guess I’ll be in for one “Hell” of a surprise when I die. Hee-hee. 😆

    No I won’t. 😉

  23. here’s a little thing I wrote (unusually I’m claiming copyright on it).

    Who is the best known Bible character? Jesus,, right? And what do we know about him?

    Well, just like Bill O’Reilly he was born into poverty and by talking about issues no-one had ever thought important before, he became famous throughout the land.

    But what do we know about Jesus’ formative years?

    We know about his birth, we know about his sermonizing and we know about how his fame led to his death.

    And then he made a comeback!

    Although it wasn’t really a comeback, it was more like the last hosanna of the prophet/philosopher formerly known as the Prince of Peace.

    Let’s face it, Jesus is a has-been.

    You’d think he’d at least have shown–up in Lebanon in 2006 or Gaza in 2008/9 but nothing-doing. Instead he makes the occasional guest appearance on pieces of toast–frankly it’s embarrassing.

    But that was now, what about THEN?

    What about the years between Jesus’s birth and the beginning of his career as a trouble-maker and stand-up philosopher.

    What about his early teens? And what was his relationship like with Joseph?

    JOSEPH: “Son, you’ll have to think about what you’re going to do with the rest of your life so I thought I’d show you what your old dad does for living by way of a little father-son project. So I’m going to teach you—pay attention lad—how to build something useful, like a birdhouse. Now it’s quite easy let me let me just get these bits of wood here…“

    JESUS: (gesticulates out of sight of his Dad—SFX: heavenly light, puff of smoke)

    JOSEPH: “Now remember son, always wear your safety sandals and —JESUS CHRIST!!”

    JESUS: “Yes ‘dad’?

    JOSEPH: “What the hell is THAT?“

    JESUS: “It’s a mahogany bedroom suite with bird’s eye maple inlays and Lebanese cedar trim inside to keep the moths out. The armoire has hidden European hinges and the chest of drawers has self-closing epoxy coated ball-bearing slides. The end table drawers have compartmentalized inserts for your cufflinks and wallet and such, all finished with a three coats of clear satin lacquer!. Soooo….How’s your…um… bird-house coming along, ‘Dad’?”

    JOSEPH: “I er …ummm… errr…”

    JESUS: “Well if we’re all done with this ‘father-son’ thing, ‘Dad’, I’m off to Judas’ house. Laterz!”

    • I got in an argument with a Lutheran minister when I was around 21 years old after a sermon one Sunday morning. I was irate after he told this story of what he would do if he were in the desert and he came across a man lying there, within minutes of dying from lack of water.. He supposedly would have water with him, and he posed the question of what he should do: Use the water to baptize the man and let him die? Or, give the man the water to drink so that he would be sustained, and then tell him about Jesus and the way to salvation.. He ended with saying OF COURSE you would use the water to baptize him and let him die..
      For some reason, that absolutely infuriated me. I went up to him after everyone left the church and we actually had a rather heated debate. The water didn’t have any magical quality.. The pastor was a man, and he didn’t have any magical powers that in blessing the water, gave it a magical power that would save this man who had no clue about Jesus or heaven.. What good did it do to pour water on his head if the dying man didn’t even know who Jesus was, and his heart was unchanged? Wouldn’t it be better to let him drink the water and then take the time to share with him so that he could come to some understanding and possible change of heart himself? None of this scenario made sense.
      The pastor was pretty unhappy with me.. Oh well. I do like to argue.. It was basically a weird argument.
      Guess I didn’t fit in with the Lutherans..

  24. Hilarious, 5th. Actually there is a book on Jesus as a child. Seems the lad got miffed at a buddy and sort of killed him. Not to worry though, he brought him back. I think it is in the Book of Thomas.

  25. muse,

    If your religious training has led you to believe that we are not alone on this planet, that we need each other to survive, and that the harmonious way to do that is to be nice to each other, then I have no problem with believing in God.

    It’s when people try to condemn other people as immoral for their differing religious beliefs that I have a problem.

    Maybe there really is a being who fits the general description of God (with the details different from what any of us were taught), but I am not a person of Faith, I require Proof. People have suggested to me that I run for public office. I could never get elected in this country because of my atheist beliefs. Oh, well. I just have to consider that to be America’s loss, not mine.

    I’m stepping away from the computer for a little while. I’ll see everyone later. And if I don’t see you before you leave, muse, I hope you and Sean have a good time. Good luck with the house.

    • Wayne, it wasn’t my religious training, it was something that happened to me a long time ago. I think I told you this story a while back. It really didn’t have anything to do with the church.
      I don’t think you should ever be made to feel judged, criticized, or uncomfortable for what you think or believe Wayne. You have every right to what you believe. It just means that our journeys have taken us different paths for different reasons to the place we are today. You are an awesome person, an awesome friend, an awesome human being, and you have so much to contribute. You would be great in public office. I know for myself, I would feel a whole lot better knowing that someone like you were in there fighting and working for me. 😀

      Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and ideals. I just don’t think it is okay to push them on to others. I have a really hard time with churches for that reason. I guess that is how they stay in business… It takes a lot of money to run them. You get your money from bringing people in. Then, you have to keep them. Bad attitude, I know..

      I just have a really bad attitude at the moment with organized religion in general. It has done so much damage throughout the history of the world.

  26. med…

    Glad you enjoyed…I wrote it with the idea of a book that I planned to call “Jesus has Two Daddies” . 😀

  27. Whatever runs the universe appears to be benign. The basic rules apply to everyone. Laws of physics don’t play favorites and there are reasons for every ‘bad’ thing that happens. If you stand in the middle of a nice dry hay field and play with matches, odds are you will get burned whether you are the Pope or OBL. Hurricanes don’t hit Montana. Costa Rica doesn’t have to worry about glaciers.

    Following that pattern, nobody gets to suffer eternal punishment. But there is definitely a price for being stupid and you pay it right at the time of stupid.

    Muse, have a safe journey and have fun. And may your remodeling efforts work out well.

    Time for me to grill some chicken.

  28. Blimey muse, never mind his unhappiness, you had to be thinking “What the heck have I been listening to this guy for all this time? And now what do I do? ”

    Seems to me, if you can;’t help but have some kind of fatih, some belief in purpose or at least meaning, keeping it simple works–all the rest is crap.
    I think that’s what Jesus was all about. .

  29. 5th, I’ll read it. Imagine being ‘step’ dad to a deity? You caught it well in that little excerpt.

  30. Thank you, muse. I appreciate that. And best of luck to you with the house. You’re almost there, and I know you can do it. You possess an inner strength that I do believe I lack. And you continue to amaze me. That Mike is one lucky guy. 🙂

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