Watering Hole: Monday, November 7, 2011 – The Barefoot Movement

Someone that is making a positive change.

This is our open thread.  Enjoy and Speak Up!


159 thoughts on “Watering Hole: Monday, November 7, 2011 – The Barefoot Movement

  1. Well, I’m up and almost ready to leave for work, I just need a little more daylight so I can clean the hackberry sap off my windshield.
    Saw this at Alternet. I expect Dbadass already knows about this, but I didn’t.
    Why the Most Important Fish We Need to Save Is One You’ve Never Heard Of

    Menhaden might be the most important fish you’ve never heard of. As far back as the 1860s, the U.S. caught more tons of menhaden than any other fish — and in many years, more menhaden than the combined commercial catch of all other finned fish put together. You don’t hear about them because they don’t show up in fish markets or on dinner menus. Rather, they go into animal feed, cosmetics, health food supplements, linoleum, lubricants, margarine, soap, insecticide, and paint.

    Of course, Omega Protein’s lobbyists will argue how essential it is that fishing continue without any pesky job-killing regulations and limits. They’ve already invested in equipment, they will say, to maximize profits. However, they don’t want to consider that other sources of the products that replace Omega’s reduced capacity might create jobs elsewhere.

  2. Celebrity super-lawyer Gloria Allred is wading into the Herman Cain sexual harassment scandal, according to gossip mag Radar.

    Maybe we can have Ryan Seacrest host the news conference.

  3. Happy Birthday, Madame Curie!

    Never deterred by the mores of the day [women aren’t intelligent] Marie kept on keeping on, despite not being allowed to present her own work (after all, that would be ‘showing up’ the menfolk).

    • I have been hearing about a recent study into poverty. Apparently the numbers are not only very high, but most of the poor are concentrated in areas where everyone is poor — and services, obviously, suck. The Right is deeply concerned about this because the deadbeats aren’t paying taxes!

      • Well, they aren’t going to go out and get jobs if they don’t have skin in the game. Even if it’s just a dollar!


        Poor people pay more for EVERYTHING. They can’t keep a high enough balance, so if they even have a bank account, they pay huge service fees. If they don’t have a bank account, they cash their checks at stores like WalMart, which costs them at least $3. No health insurance, so the walk in clinic charges $165 just to walk through the doors. Bad credit or no credit means they won’t be able to get a decent apartment or job. The cheapest and easiest phone to get are pay-as-you-go phones, but although the phones are fairly cheap and there’s no contract to worry about, the minutes are unbelievably expensive.

        And on and on…

        • My little community, within the Big City, on any block you’ll see at least two to four shops that advertise Western Union, pre-paid phones along with all the quinceanera essentials.
          Some will sell the dresses others the plastic flowers,banners, etc.

          We’ve had the us vs. gated-community discussions. Community-wise: we are quite happy to actually have one!
          Those who insist on being scared and living behind locked gates, generally, don’t have any ‘conveniences’ within walking distance.

          We, on the other hand, can walk to local bakeries, mercados – gather, without having to drive, to discuss goings on – or just nod and smile acknowledgement! We may be, monetarily, poor yet the sense of community is very much present.
          (yes, we have the same problem with ‘poorer’ areas of any city: higher concentration of liquor stores)

        • I went to a quinceanera once, had the time of my life! She was a delightful girl, daughter of a close friend and business associate. The food was spectacular! All local homemade goodies served by celebrant family members (mostly grandmas, seemed to me), and the entertainment began with a Mariachi band, followed by about ten black-haired girls in long white dresses whacking at a giant Pinata hanging from the ceiling. My younger daughter (probably four or five years old), her grandma (my mother) and myself were the only ‘Anglos’ at the party, but we were all as ‘at home’ as if at a Swedish smorgasborg in Minnesota. My little one was, of course, too small to participate in the pinata thingee, but no worries, each of the girls in white dresses brought her a share of their own rewards and the crowd cheered in the process.

          As I said, it was a delightful experience . . . a fascinating tradition celebrated by beautiful people. I’ll never forget it.

    • While the republicans want to cut food stamps, cut Medicaid, cut unemployment; according to Michelle Bachmann, if they can’t work, they shouldn’t eat; Cain says if we’re not rich, it’s our own fault; Romney says let the foreclosures continue and let the banks have it all; Paul wants to eliminate safety nets, period; and our legislators are determining that women have no rights and a fertilized egg is a person.

  4. Spanish cemetery warns of evictions for nonpayment

    MADRID – Pushed for space, a Spanish cemetery has begun placing stickers on thousands of burial sites whose leases are up as a warning to relatives or caretakers to pay up or face possible eviction.

  5. I’m a little conflicted here at work. One of our admin people, who I have viewed for years as a complete pain in the ass — the sort of bad worker that creates additional work for others, and a whiny repellent person. Since she moved into our work group, I’ve been praying for her to retire.

    We’re having lots of serious budget issues here and the individual she was ostensibly working for has just retired, so SH has been laid off since her position has gone and there’s no place to shift her. On one hand, I’m very pleased that I’ll never have to see her again but on the other hand, she’s in what I consider a nightmare scenario. In this economy, her chances of landing another job are somewhere between zip and zilch. It’s just a very good thing she never succeeded in buying a house as she has been attempting for the last couple of years.

    As much as I can’t stand the woman, I wouldn’t wish this on anyone.

    • You are a compassionate progressive, that’s a good quality.
      Although she is no longer the thorn that bothers. you did give a very brief thought as to her future.

      You are a good person, gummitch!

    • When it comes to my concept of socialism, there is NO frugality! 😀

      On the other hand, based on her comments and positions on abortion and her thereby implicit willingness to mandate a government WPA (Womb Patrol Agency) member present in every woman’s bedroom, bathroom, and doctor’s office, I am so goddamned FRUGAL compared with her and those who agree with her that it would be fair for all of them to be very, very worried that I am not be the only one out there who THINKS (like that)!

      Could that make me a ‘Frugal Conservative’? Just the thought of it is scary scary!

  6. (if so) Hoover should have embraced his sexuality/come out of the closet. Think of how much happier he’d have been. And how many people’s lives would have been spared the FBI snooping/prodding/prying/ruination.

    Hoover Worried ‘Lice-Covered Ferret’ Journalist Would Report He Was Gay

    • The closets were awfully deep and dark in his day, especially in government and law enforcement. I have no doubt he was in complete denial.

    • Nothing new there. I’ve assumed he was gay for several decades already, probably because he was. Gay. Or at least bi. No biggie. I wouldn’t have liked him no matter what his preference was.

    • It appears that his wife has known about his “problem” for awhile. It would have been nice if she’d spoken up. Wanking at the kids’ park, though, that’s priceless.

      • Apparently, it wasn’t a “problem” for the wife until it became a public embarrassment to her. 🙄

        A word of caution to men who feel the need for a wank away from home: Take note of your surroundings.

    • The most vocal anti-gay crowd are so often the ones who are the worst sex offenders — either in the case of this pervert, or in that they themselves are homosexual/bisexual and their self-loathing compels them to preach hatred and intolerance.

      • Storms requested the forgiveness of the gay men and women he’s spent years tormenting. “I was very proudful, arrogant,” he said. “I have been vicious at times in my condemnation of others.”

        (of course the emphasis is mind)

  7. Well? The Reichwhiners are circling the wagons for KochCain in light of the latest claim of sexual harassment. They are busy all around the web trying to discredit the accusers, claim that sexual harassment “isn’t really a crime”, and playing the false equivalency game of pointing out Bill Clinton’s sex scandals.

      • Bialek described an incident after dinner in 1997 in Washington DC when she said Cain reached up her skirt and tried to force her head to his crotch while the pair were in Cain’s car.

        Good god. *barf*

          • Good thing he can’t remember it. He’d have to sing another hymn, probably.

            This morning I watched online Chris Hayes’ pair of weekend shows. I think it was the Saturday one where they spoke at length about Cain’s current “problem” and the issues it’s brought forth, particularly the racial/racist nonsense on the part of the right wing, their thesis that the ‘attacks’ on Cain prove the left is the racist element, etc. Someone mentioned in passing that Obama has no such baggage, none even hinted even though any trace would bring forth a predictable barrage.

            Can anyone imagine Rush et al. if it was Obama charged with a sexual indiscretion? Esp. if the woman was white?

            I’m so sorry to admit it, but this country, in spite of (or maybe because of) its mythology, currently houses one of the most fucked up political movements anywhere on the planet. I’m no longer sure there’s even a solution, so deep runs the hatred in those who care about nothing other than power and monetary wealth.

          • The trolls at my local paper are pulling out all the stops. They are trying: “Clinton did it”, “Gloria Allred is sleazy” (An opinion I share but that doesn’t serve to discredit her clients.), and “she’s from Chicago! Chicago politics are dirty!! She waited until someone who can challenge Obama became the frontrunner!!!”.

  8. Well … if you’re a presidential candidate and a woman describes your actions and uses the words “crotch” and “genitals,” you are not having a good day.

    Allred picked a bad news day to stage this circus, with the Conrad Murray verdict, Penn State allegations, Iran nukes…The Cain story is mostly being ignored.

  9. Obama’s anti-gun strategy exposed!

    Just how dedicated does the National Rifle Association think the Obama administration is to destroying the Second Amendment? The director of the organization thinks that DOJ gave weapons to Mexican drug cartels during Operation Fast and Furious in an effort to churn up support for changing gun laws.

    National Rifle Association Director Wayne LaPierre — who has also suggested that the fact that Obama has not cracked down on guns is just part of a long term scheme to actually crack down on guns — has been recently floating the conspiracy theory that Fast and Furious was a way to impose stricter guns laws.

    “It’s the only thing that makes any sense,” LaPierre told Newsmax. “Over a period of two or three years they were running thousands and thousands of guns to the most evil people on earth. At the same time they were yelling ‘90 per cent… of the guns the Mexican drug cartels are using come from the United States.’”

    • Hey, hey – we said science was on our side – that’s all need be considered//

      If there really is a gawd shake these idiots by the shoulder to loosen the grey matter you’ve supposedly included with the kit!

    • Orly won’t be representing CA – long before the vote she’ll open her mouth to spew some cockamamie crap.
      Stay tuned – she’ll be entertainingly nutty.

  10. Why would the righties think that any Democrat would want to discredit Cain? Do they really not know how confident the Democrats are that Obama would be guaranteed a second term if Cain is their nominee?

    • Outstanding, they’ve determined that ‘their Blacks are better than ours’
      As you pointed out intellectually there is no match.
      Obama actually lives in this universe and understands what is happening.
      Cain just blames the media.

  11. Even though the Reichwhiners are completely predictable, it still comes as a shock when they stoop to a new low. In reading about the allegations against “Herb” KochCain I knew, going in, that they would be doing all in their power to discredit the accusers. But? This stuff is so far beyond the thinking of decent, sane, people that it still surprises. Here’s just one of the hundreds of comments I’ve seen in the same vein…

    Considering this woman is from Chicago, and Gloria Allard {super big liberal} is her lawyer, I would guess this is one more attempt to discredit Cain. Obama doesn’t want people to know that Blacks can make it on their own without his help.

      • Narrow mindedness is a given. What disgusts me is the palpable hate being directed at the accusers because they have the “gall to attack” a Reichwhiner.

    • That’s insane. Most people are smart enough to know that Obama also made it “on his own”. We’re also smart enough to know that people of all races can find themselves, frequently due to nothing more than chance, unable to make it on their own.

  12. Spent some more time on the picket lines here in C’dale (the Faculty Association, representing the tenured and tenure-track faculty is on strike.) Being non-tenure-track, I can still participate as a community supporter. Rally afterwards organized by the students, drew a crowd that I’m guessing at 300 people (pretty good, considering.)

    Admin made the phone call and brought the teams back in to negotiate. It remains to be seen if this is a ploy or if they are serious this time.

      • Echoing Outstanding!


        Cal Poly faculty planning walkout

        Faculty members at Cal Poly are planning to walk out of classes on Tuesday for a brief protest over Chancellor Charles Reed’s decision to cancel scheduled raises.
        Faculty from CSU campuses throughout California will protest against the “1 percent” who run the universities. Cal Poly faculty is planning to meet at the quad and march down to the administration building at noon.

    • The issue here at SIU is not money; the faculty declined a fixed program of raises and suggested instead that any raises would be directly linked to the financial health of the institution.

      The issue is who gets to determine that financial health, and whether other people get to learn about how it was determined. The FA (Faculty Association, the local IEA/NEA union) insists there must be transparency while the Admin refuses to allow even post hoc investigation of declarations of financial exigency.

      The Admins position would mean the end of tenure — indeed, any pretense of job security to say nothing of shared governance — here at SIU. They could arbitrarily declare financial exigency at any time they chose, fire anyone they pleased on that account, unilaterally set aside any contract, etc. The Admin has already demonstrated that they are more than willing to trample contractually binding agreements whenever it suits them, as they did this past year when they imposed mandatory “furloughs” on the faculty, then set aside the existing contract and declared a new one in place w/o even a pretense of negotiation.

      This sort of arbitrary power not only cuts at academic freedom in the classroom, it eliminates any pretense of shared governance. Also this past year there was a search for a new Dean of the School of Engineering. A search committee was formed that went through the various candidates and lit upon a selection of a final three. These three did not include the flunky that was the Chancellor’s favorite, and so she attempted to set aside the entire decision process for her preferred toady. The entire search committee threatened to resign over this move, which pressured the Chancellor to go back the committee’s list.

      The Chancellor was forced to back down because in the absence of the committee’s imprimatur, the hire would be obviously lacking in even the pretense of legitimacy. But the only way the committee could stand up to the Chancellor on this issue was because they new that their jobs were secured by contract and tenure. The Admin is demanding the power to set all of this aside without any scintilla of accountability. This is what we in the profession refer to as the “Corporate University.”

      It is obvious to me that if the FA goes down, none of the other three unions and their tentative agreements will be worth the paper the Admin uses to wipe its ass. We will, in point of fact, be the paper with which the Admin wipes its ass.

      • It sounds like just another little (big to those involved) bit of the war on labor. The 1% wants complete control. They want to be able to hire and fire people based on the whims of politics, prejudice, and cliquishness.

        • Indeed. The attack on faculty goes back at least 40 years. In 1970, 75% of faculty were tenure or tenure-track. Today that number is down to 25%. This is not an accident.

  13. I just wanted to thank Cats for this video detailing the Barefoot Movement! I wanted to “star vote/like” the post, yet this feature doesn’t seem to be here today … or has it moved?

    And hello to all ~ Sunny and mid 60’s here today. Just gorgeous for a late autumn hike with the pup 🙂

  14. Quote of the Day:

    “What is the candidates’ objection to Obama implementing the status-of-forces agreement that his predecessor signed in 2008? The candidates should answer three questions: How many troops would they leave in Iraq? For how long? And for what purpose? If eight years, 4,485 lives and $800 billion are not enough, how many more of each are they prepared to invest there? And spare us the conventional dodge about “listening to” the “commanders in the field.” Each candidate is aspiring to be commander in chief in a nation in which civilians set policy for officers to execute,” – George Will — clearly fed up with Iraq — ahead of Wednesday night’s debate.

  15. I’m convinced that the same evil forces that were behind fabricating Obama’s Hawaiian birth, the people who planted the birth announcements in the newspapers, the ones who forged his birth certificate, these same people are also responsible for convincing women who were employed by the NRA in the 1990’s to put Herman Cain in comprising situations and document charges against him back then.

    Yep, there’s absolutely no doubt in my mind, none whatsoever!


  16. The local newspaper (the “Southern Illinoisan”) estimates the crowd at the pro-union, pro-faculty rally this afternoon at 750 — 1000. My own SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guess) was more like 300, but I’ve no sense of crowd sizes. Also, I left early (my knees and back were/are killing me) so the crowd may have grown.

    I’ve never done anything like this before. Its kinda weird, in a good way.

    • It’s a good feeling to be able to have ones voice and presence matter!

      Good for you, Gary!

  17. One down. Three or four to go! (Won’t know until Thursday if there’s a need for Friday. That’s normal.)

      • Good evening! Strange to be getting home this time of day. I was on nights before I started spending time around The Zoo.

          • It wasn’t that much different than when I worked there before. I’m much happier being able to run the Haas machines there, because the old Fadal machines are obsolete. One reason I left was to get experience on newer machines. Now I can run all the brands in the shop.

            • Well, I could use a good pair of comfortable shoes right now. They don’t require steel toed shoes, and I had to wear them at the last place. Now my non-steel work shoes are about wore out. Steel toe shoes are about as bad as Steve Martin’s Cruel Shoes! 😀

      • Can you imagine Herb allowing anyone to “handle” him?

        He leaves that to attractive female potential employees. 😉

    • now that the first wave of Lushbo and inSeanitty has weighed in, the stupid internet trolls seem to be solidifying their message somewhat.

      1. Gloria Allred cooked up the whole thing as a publicity stunt.
      2. If it was such a horrible experience? She would have come forward sooner.
      3. Since she’s from Chicago? Obama put her up to it.
      4. She had no business being in a car with “Herb” anyway.
      5. She wasn’t sexually harassed because she didn’t work for KochCain and sexual harassment is just a crime made up by a bunch of lesbians who think boys are icky.
      6. Clinton did it first.

      There are days where i really, really, hate these Reichwing freaks.

        • Well? We “little people” need to define ourselves by the best among us rather than the worst. It’s a very, very, hard thing to do.

        • “Decent country again”? This shit never stopped happening, and the victory was never ours in the first (or any other) place. This is the fight that we must keep fighting.

          I encourage everyone to read Frances Fox Pivens; bar none, the best historian of popular movements in the US alive today.

          But this is not a reason for despair. Yesterday I clipped my fingernails, net tomorrow they will need clipping again. It would be absurd to suggest that clipping them the other day was pointless.

          We do not get to make the universe over into the image we desire once and for all.

          Rather, we define ourselves by the efforts we make in defining the universe here, now, today.

      • I think it was at TPM that a troll was claiming that all of Alred’s clients had been liars, therefore this woman is a liar. Oddly enough, there was no evidence that any of Alred’s clients were liars, much less all of them.

        I recognize some of the people posting there from the old days at TP. Jake, for one, who hasn’t changed or matured even a tiny bit. Freeman is also there, flailing away from the Left and giving us hippies a bad name.

        • Funny, I only rarely ever read the comments on TPM, and seldom comment.

          I recognized some TP commenters there, but didn’t realize Jake and Freeman were among them. I use a different moniker, so no one recognizes me. Yet.

  18. My nephew (jr. Cal Poly physics major) tutors and finds it difficult to believe that some don’t really know the basics:

    Kid: I can’t solve sin^2 + cos^2.
    Me: All we need to do is use the Pythagorean identity.
    Kid: I know how to do that but that’s not going to help me solve sin^2 + cos^2.

  19. Re-organizing my brain to take in that the sun says goodbye a ittle after 5p!
    Takes me several days to realize PST has visited us only to snatch the extra daylight!

  20. Hicks: Zoo will separate gay penguins

    Sadly, even love won’t keep a couple of gay penguins together.
    The Toronto Zoo is planning on separating a pair of male penguins, which is not going over well with zoologists and the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community.

    Toronto Star reported that Buddy and Pedro are inseparable and show signs of traditional mating behaviors. Such as arguing over whose family to spend holidays with and where to find an affordable apartment should they decide to take the next step.

    • They’re penguins, for fuck’s sake!

      F the world, I’m going to watch a movie about love. It’s all a fantasy anyway.

      • They want Pedro and Buddy to mate with females-
        their breed is in danger.
        Love is love – let them be. Find males who are interested in females.

  21. After surfing around some more on the subject of “Herb”; i have arrived at a tentative top ten list of excuses that will be offered in “Herb”‘s defense. Feel free to submit others if I’ve missed any.

    1. Gloria Allred cooked up the whole thing as a publicity stunt.
    2. If it was such a horrible experience? She would have come forward sooner.
    3. Since she’s from Chicago? Obama put her up to it.
    4. She had no business being in a car with “Herb” anyway.
    5. She wasn’t sexually harassed because she didn’t work for KochCain and sexual harassment is just a crime made up by a bunch of lesbians who think boys are icky.
    6. She’s “hot”.
    7. The “librul media” just can’t stand the idea of a black guy running for… wait a minute!
    8. Did I mention she’s “hot”?
    9. “9-9-9”
    10. Clinton did it first!

    • Proving, once again, that anyone who cites the Buybull, or any other Scripture, as justification for policy should be barred from public office.

      BTW, Zooey, what happened to the movie about love? You gals are lucky. When we men watch movies about “love” we go blind!

    • And the Bible also tells of Jesus in the Sermon on the mount allowing that the meek shall inherit the earth. And in a separate parable, described how it would be harder for a rich person to pass through the eye of a needle than to enter the gates of heaven.

      And for a topper, Matthew 25 tells people to care for the least of these.

      • What? I thought that Jesus said we would go to Hell if we aren’t rich and that we should trample anyone who stands in our way. All that “librul” stuff you speak of makes me wonder if Christianity, stripped of its Reichwhiners, has some merit after all.

    • Hmmm. I have seen it but I’m not sure if it was linked here. I’ve been in a virtual Rapture since I got my new computer so I’ve been surfing at such a furious pace that it’s hard to recall where I saw what.

        • Yes. It is bliss. The new machine isn’t just faster; it’s running functions that the operating system was automatically turning off because the poor old thing was so very, very, deficient. It’s just like getting a new pair of glasses and rediscovering that that blurry green stuff on trees is composed of individual leaves.

            • I ran out of replies, Ebb.

              My cat is very good at going with the flow. After years of putting up with other cats, a dog, and young children; there isn’t much an old bachelor can do to upset her. She’s pretty content so long as she has fresh food and water and I leave a plastic grocery bag, or my old windbreaker, on the couch so she has a place to sleep and/or give me haughty looks.

    • There are subjects that require more than one day of discussion.

      The ‘fat cats’ couldn’t even sustain a minutes worth of clapping in an attempt to drown out the 99% who did a tremendous job.

  22. 5 Insane Ways Fear of Masturbation Shaped the Modern World

    The Middle Ages had the Black Death, 1918 had the influenza epidemic. But the scourge sweeping the land at the end of the 19th century? Masturbation.

    • This would mess up BillyO’s mind – if he can’t figure out how the tide works…this would be too overwhelming.

      • Well, to be frank, it takes very little to mess with Bill0’s “mind”.

        Speaking of Bill0. Has anyone seen whether he decided to mention the KochCain sexual harassment/assault story? Heck! Is Bill0 even allowed to use the words “sexual harassment”?

  23. hey quick question – what was the early christian histpry analysis writer we were talking about a few weeks’ ago? I would like to read some of his stuff?

    Anyone remember?

    • You may want to repeat the question on tomorrow’s Watering Hole. Hooda and Jane may recall. Can’t remember who was in on the conversation.

      • I was at the library while I wrote that – couldn’t remember – settled for some Neil Gaiman for TommytT and me.

        • Had a feeling you were either there or at a bookstore.
          Sorry, I just didn’t recall the author.

          (Gaiman would be much more enjoyable a read!)

  24. Please forgive me for enjoying today’s events. I had neglected to include George Soros and racism in my list of things the Reichwhiners would use to discredit Sharon Bialek. here’s the offending comment.

    Really Farnces – there is nothing to note from this woman today – this is complete and total BULLSHIT, paid for by George Soros.

    The mainstream media is working overtime to destroy the REAL black man, while you worked overtime to protect the half black man. And to think,. several people forth with sexual allegations against Obama dn Frances, Mediaite and the rest of the media IGNORED them.

    Pure sickness on the left – the racists rule on the left.


    • Go for it pete!
      What is very telling: Gloria Cain isn’t by his side.
      I’m glad for that – means she is an independent person.

      The tide has turned on the “stand by your man”/”my man right or wrong”. It was painful to watch the looks on the faces of the wives as the groveling husband ‘begged for forgiveness’.

      • The part that I find most fascinating is that so many have used the “Clinton did it” defense. I’m quite sure that all of us sane adults had an incident where we told Mom and/or Dad that “someone/everyone else does it”. And I’m pretty sure that we all learned, with various levels of pain and/or embarrassment, that such an excuse was not an excuse. I am forced to conclude that Reichwhiners never learned that lesson.

    • I don’t think so – although he was in my ‘last looked at’ list on Amazon.com

  25. I like how Truth Dig put in the Marvelous Marcus reference)

    Fans of the Toronto Zoo’s same-sex penguin couple Buddy and Pedro will be dismayed to hear that the bonded pair will soon be parted and subjected to heterosexual retraining measures (paging Marcus Bachmann)—specifically, placing them in contained areas with females—in the interest of saving their species. This is a sobering bulletin from the bird world, yet we feel it can serve as an object lesson when seen through an anthropomorphic lens. Or something. —KA

    • Why not artificially inseminate the females and leave the boys alone?

      It works with cows. I don’t think the bulls ever get close to the cows anymore in the cattle world.

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